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Regarding Powergaming

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Hi!

So I have a question regarding how far "powergaming" reach since I'm afraid that I might not have understood the rule completely, which is kinda embarrassing to be honest. I asked about this in another thread and got a somewhat answer from Rolle but I would like some clarification.

I'm going to quote the rules so we have somewhere to start off with:

ed722e226ca7deca8b1ba427079116dd.png

b4b61379a265c037162f9d01f3a2ccc8.png

So from my understanding, "powergaming" comes into play when you force an permanent injury/scar/action on a person without their consent using mechanics that the game doesn't allow. Like altering a character via non in game visuals/mechanics. Example would be if I emote that I brand someone with my initials using a knife. It wouldn't show visually on his in game character and I can't do it with in game mechanics. So he will be forced to roleplay it out in the future.

That's how I understood it, but then Rolle said this:

703820742180727ebab62dc612387529.png

This statement to me make it seem like you can't even use "in game mechanics" to hurt a person without their consent.

What I mean by "hurt" is if I have a hostage and we are doing hostile role play I might hit them with an item using in game mechanics, which would logically leave a permanent scar/damage. It would most likely "force" the player to roleplay it out in the future since it would affect his character.

An example:

The hostage is mouthing off so I choose to take my nailed baseball bat and hit him on the leg. I don't emote or tell him that what I just did will leave a permanent scar but in reality it will without a doubt. If I emote that I take out a hammer and nails and get to work with the leg it would be seen as powergaming judging from a recent report.

So my question is:

Do I need to ask OOC permission even when I use in game mechanics to hurt someone which would logically leave a permanent scar even if I don't say it does?

If that's the case then I think we might need to reword the rules since from my point of view it seems that powergaming only applies when you don't use in game mechanics.

I have stabbed many people with screwdrivers using in game mechanics and I didn't even know that I broke the rules by doing that.

I'm really sorry if I don't make sense but it really late and I'm tired. Please ask questions if you don't understand and I'll do my best to answer them.

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Now me personally. I don't like hitting people for real in game. Especially with a weapon like a spiked baseball bat. If you emote it you may want to think more realistically. If you smash someone's knee with a baseball bat, but don't mention in the emote that it would be shattered or it broke, than its not Powergameing. If you just hit someone in the leg with no emote, than its up to them if they want to permanently hurt themselves.

Just think more realistically with what you use in game, or don't mention that it would leave any permanent damage. That way they can interpret what would happen in the future. I may be wrong, but I hope that helps a little, Sten.

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Buddy    837

[align=justify]I'm completely on the outside looking in on this scenario / discussion with the current power-gaming misshap. The way I've been silently interpreting it is that; if I have a hostage in my possession, I can physically assault them via actual game mechanics (fists / bat / screwdriver / fish etc...) so long as it is within the boundaries of the community rules.. ie.. the hostage is not cooperating whatsoever with me nor my demands. I don't even bring the word "power-gaming" into the scenario until I decide that I'd like to get creative and be more descriptive about my methods of abusing the hostage. Such as;

[align=justify](Buddy Johnson) : *Kicks -randomguy- to the ground and drags him through the gravel*

[align=justify]Okay hurray, I'm being descriptive.

[align=justify]But now, I decide that I would like to leave a lasting impression on my hostage to let them know that I mean business. At that point maybe I decide to pull a knife and hold it to their face and then proceed as such:

[align=justify](Buddy Johnson) : //permission to carve initials across the back of your neck?

[align=justify]At that point I'd wait for my hostage to either respond with yay or nay before going anywhere, I'd be powergaming a visible injury otherwise. 

[align=justify]Had I not gone as far as wanting to leave a scar, and my hostage decides AFTERWORDS that they would like to RP out in their personal character progression that by beating them caused a permanent scaring then alright, that's on them. It becomes their choice as I decided nothing physical happened. Sure I may have beat the crap out of them, but it's ultimately up to the hostage to decide if they're secretly superman and can walk it off or they look like they just arrived to the emergency room.

That is how I've always comprehended the ruling... shoot me if I'm wrong (but please ask first if you'd like to perm scar me)

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Now me personally. I don't like hitting people for real in game. Especially with a weapon like a spiked baseball bat. If you emote it you may want to think more realistically. If you smash someone's knee with a baseball bat, but don't mention in the emote that it would be shattered or it broke, than its not Powergameing. If you just hit someone in the leg with no emote, than its up to them if they want to permanently hurt themselves.

Just think more realistically with what you use in game, or don't mention that it would leave any permanent damage. That way they can interpret what would happen in the future. I may be wrong, but I hope that helps a little, Sten.

I changed the examples. Well what you say would be all fine and dandy if we didn't have a report/appeal recently which got verdict powergaming when someone nailed a guys hand. They didn't emote that it would leave any perma scars but staff thought it was obvious that it would.


That is how I've always comprehended the ruling... shoot me if I'm wrong (but please ask first if you'd like to perm scar me)

Well if I understand correctly from Rolles quote:

703820742180727ebab62dc612387529.png

Whatever you do that would cause permanent damages is considered powergaming.

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   44

Well fire fights/shooting people cant happen any more, bullet wounds and such. Y'all don't want a sudden powergaming ban.

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Ark    201

Frosty pretty much hit the nail on the head.

If you hit someone with a baseball bat and emote out that it fucks up their leg without their permission then yes it would be considered power gaming. However, if you just smack them with the bat using the in game mechanics without emoting anything, then it is up to the other player on whether or not any real damage is done and if a scar would occur.

So if you hit someone with an in game object, using the in game mechanics for that object to hurt someone  and then you don't emote anything afterward leaving it completely up to the other player on what happens then no rule has been broken in my opinion.

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Frosty pretty much hit the nail on the head.

If you hit someone with a baseball bat and emote out that it fucks up their leg without their permission then yes it would be considered power gaming. However, if you just smack them with the bat using the in game mechanics without emoting anything, then it is up to the other player on whether or not any real damage is done and if a scar would occur.

So if you hit someone with an in game object, using the in game mechanics for that object to hurt someone  and then you don't emote anything afterward leaving it completely up to the other player on what happens then no rule has been broken in my opinion.

Alright, so the difference between emoting that you hammer a nail in someones hand and hit someone on the hand with an in game nailed baseball bat is that it's something that can't be done using game mechanics even tho the outcome would be the same?

How does that really make sense if the outcome would be the same? Keeping in mind that I base this from a recent report where staff said that it would leave a permanent scar even though the perpetrates didn't specify it.

Also please take Rolle's quote into consideration that everything that could leave a permanent scar would be seen as powergaming even though it's only beyond game mechanics that's specified in the rules.

Thank you for responding, I was afraid my thread was being ignored or didn't make sense.

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Pussy    311

Frosty pretty much hit the nail on the head.

If you hit someone with a baseball bat and emote out that it fucks up their leg without their permission then yes it would be considered power gaming. However, if you just smack them with the bat using the in game mechanics without emoting anything, then it is up to the other player on whether or not any real damage is done and if a scar would occur.

So if you hit someone with an in game object, using the in game mechanics for that object to hurt someone  and then you don't emote anything afterward leaving it completely up to the other player on what happens then no rule has been broken in my opinion.

Yes and no, and to a certain extent.

If I hit someone's arm with an axe, there's a permanent scar and irreparable damage even if it has not been emoted through. I think the user still has to be cautious of their actions, even if they're leaving it up to their hostage. The excuse of "I used an axe, but didn't emote anything so it's not really power gaming" doesn't really fly in my opinion. 

I say be realistic in your approach and what tools you're using to inflict damage. If you can safely see how something would fuck up someone's arm forever, then I'd say just don't do it without asking first. 

If you're the one causing the damage, you are the one initiating the issue. Meaning, take responsibility for your actions and know that every action has a reaction.

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If you're the one causing the damage, you are the one initiating the issue. Meaning, take responsibility for your actions and know that every action has a reaction.

Right, if this is the case I think we would need to update the powergaming rules on that since how many people haven't shot or stabbed one of their hostages for mouthing off? I don't think most people are aware that it's considered powergaming.

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SweetJoe    280

Ok. Roman . If i hit you in the knee in game, it has a chance to break your leg, if that happens, we roll with it. (Assuming i have valid kos right or permission to hit you[such as an agreed fight with bats i guess.]) This wouldnt be power gaming.

Now, if your my hostage and i type "breaks your knees with baseball bat" its powergaming.(regardless of valid kos rights unless permission is granted.)

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Jamie    1181

I think you bring up a good question. I'll give my opinion on it.

With RP, you have to take things with a pinch of salt. Almost the whole population that plays on the server have received a gunshot wound of some sort whilst participating in a firefight of some sort. It does not state in the rules that you must roleplay out the bullet wound injuries. If you were thinking realistically, it would take a long time to heal a bullet wound, and a lot of them could be fatal perhaps penetrating a vital organ of some sort.

I think the same applies to torture roleplay. There have been several instances where I have hit my hostage with bats, knives, pans and cooking pots without wanting to inflict any permascars upon them. It's entirely optional if the hostage wishes to act on these actions and further their character development.

If you think about how many fist fights occur on the server, but only 5% actually role play out broken noses. I'm one of those people. I will participate in endless amounts of fist fights, but never actually roleplay a broken nose or anything. It's a different example, but one that I feel relates to the question.

If I was to type something along the lines of:

*Jamie throws a punch, breaking your nose.*

*Jamie slices down his leg, leaving a deep mark*

*Jaroslav shoots a bullet through his leg, leaving a fatal wound*

With these examples, it does not give the hostage an option to roleplay them out or not. With the emotes listed above, they are only left with one option but to roleplay it out, hence the powergaming. Hope this gives you some more insight.

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With these examples, it does not give the hostage an option to roleplay them out or not. With the emotes listed above, they are only left with one option but to roleplay it out, hence the powergaming. Hope this gives you some more insight.

Not really no. Since in that report I'm talking about they never mentioned the outcome. They still got hit for powergaming when putting a nail through someones hand and staff said that it would leave a permanent scar. From the answers I've gotten so far except from Rolle it seems that if they had hit him with a nailed baseball bat it wouldn't had been powergaming even though the outcome would be the same.

Like I said, Rolle stated that all actions that could lead to a permanent scar/damage is powergaming and that I didn't know.

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SweetJoe    280

With these examples, it does not give the hostage an option to roleplay them out or not. With the emotes listed above, they are only left with one option but to roleplay it out, hence the powergaming. Hope this gives you some more insight.

Not really no. Since in that report I'm talking about they never mentioned the outcome. They still got hit for powergaming when putting a nail through someones hand and staff said that it would leave a permanent scar. From the answers I've gotten so far except from Rolle it seems that if they had hit him with a nailed baseball bat it wouldn't had been powergaming even though the outcome would be the same.

Like I said, Rolle stated that all actions that could lead to a permanent scar/damage is powergaming and that I didn't know.

Lets move away from that report for a minute.

Roman, can you harm a compliant hostage?

No of.course not.

Can you beat a compliant hostage?(not a shit talker)

No of course not, unless hes being disorderly and you tell him the repercussions.

So can you shatter a Compliant hostages knee with a real baseballbat?  

No. No you cannot.

Can you shatter a disorderly hostages knee who has been warned that his conduct will bring this action about?

Yes. Yes you can. So long as he is noncompliant and its a real bat.

So what can we do to compliant hostages?

Ask permission ooc like the Clowns.

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How to avoid powergaming. By Thumper

If you have KOS or Execution rights, bash away with in game objects.

If you don't:

When you emote doing things, leave it open ended with words like 'attempts', 'tries' and the like.

For example:

*Thumper holds the bat menacingly, and swings it down towards Dad's knee in an attempt to hit it with all his might*

This way Dad has the say so whether or not I hit, or miss, damage or no damage.

This is roleplay, give and take and playing off each other. No OOC, no permission needed. Can't be powergamed as long as you leave it to your victim to decide.

Leave everything open ended, and the roleplay will flow.

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Elmo    903

I think the real issue is the issue of "force."

To force someone to do something would be to make them do something against their will, thus a lack of consent is necessary for force e.g. *Max swings the hatchet at John, carving a large chunk of skin out of his face, breaking his cheek and leaving a permanent scar once healed.* This is my understanding of force. Max took the initiative to swing at John and explicitly states 3 permanent consequences for John's character. John did not agree to this but Max "forced" these wounds upon him via a text emote, forcing John to RP out said injuries.

Conversely, if Max were to say *Max swings the hatchet at John's head, attempting to slice away part of his face* this would be an entirely separate matter. The consequences, or lack thereof, are entirely up to John (as is his right). That is to say, it is John's choice whether Maxwell misses, grazes his cheek or outright chops his head off. Any consequences are a result of John's RP and the burden lies with him, as Max has given John a choice as to whether or not he faces these consequences. (No pun intended)

To address the issue of using in-game mechanics to force a permanent effect on someone e.g. Using a steak knife to cut off someone's finger. Just the other day I was in Novy Sobor doing medical RP on a guy who had his mouth sewn up by bad guys. My friend started mucking about with a stone knife and accidentally sliced my face with the knife (he's a bit of a klutz). Now, seeing as said friend hasn't actually forced any state of permanent injury on me via that knife, I see no problem with this kind of torture/RP. It is entirely my choice if that knife leaves a scar on my face. As is defined in the rules, force is required for powergaming, there is no force there as the issue is left entirely up to me. As it so happens, I tend to RP out wounds I take in fist fights, knife fights and all other kinds of melee engagements as I feel it adds a layer of realism and depth to my RP. Once again, Max takes a swing at John with a real axe and hits him in the chest. It is entirely up to John whether or not he wants to RP out having a gash the size of Kerry in his chest, or if he wants to patch himself up with a bandage and crack on.

My point is, John has a choice with in-game mechanics and, if done so correctly, he has a choice with emote RP too.

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It seems that people don't understand my question and are trying to explain what powergaming is. This is not what I'm asking about. That's probably my fault since I feel like I haven't been clear enough. So please, If you don't understand my question I respectfully ask everyone to not reply if you are not staff.

To clarify to staff:

In a report 2 people got hit for powergaming after they emoted driving a nail through someones hand. They didn't state any consequences but staff said that there were no possibility that it wouldn't had left a permanent scar.

I asked Rolle in a thread if there was a difference between using in game items and mechanics that would archive the same outcome as emoting and he said no.

So I want to know if every action that might logically leave a permanent scar/damage is considered powergaming and not what it says in the rules right now that it's only powergaming when it's "beyond game mechanics".

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Oliv    1552

I'm not going to lie, I'm confused. I know you've clarified the question, but it seems like Ark did a good job answering it here.

I don't know how to answer your question without bringing up the rules again.

So I want to know if every action that might logically leave a permanent scar/damage is considered powergaming and not what it says in the rules right now that it's only powergaming when it's "beyond game mechanics".

Technically, many actions can and could leave a character with a permanent scar. Examples have been brought up before, so I'm not going to bother bringing up more, because every situation is different.

The way you word your question with "EVERY action", the answer is no. Not every action that can and could permanently scar some one is going to be considered powergaming based on the rules. But if your question was "SOME actions" the answer would not be no, but also not yes.

You might consider this a grey answer, not definitive, etc, but that's because there is no real definitive answer. Not every situation is the same, therefor there is no "100% this is your answer everytime".

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I'm not going to lie, I'm confused. I know you've clarified the question, but it seems like Ark did a good job answering it here.

I don't know how to answer your question without bringing up the rules again.

So I want to know if every action that might logically leave a permanent scar/damage is considered powergaming and not what it says in the rules right now that it's only powergaming when it's "beyond game mechanics".

Technically, many actions can and could leave a character with a permanent scar. Examples have been brought up before, so I'm not going to bother bringing up more, because every situation is different.

The way you word your question with "EVERY action", the answer is no. Not every action that can and could permanently scar some one is going to be considered powergaming based on the rules. But if your question was "SOME actions" the answer would not be no, but also not yes.

You might consider this a grey answer, not definitive, etc, but that's because there is no real definitive answer. Not every situation is the same, therefor there is no "100% this is your answer everytime".

There's nothing grey about my question tho...

Again, let's take a look at what Rolle said:

703820742180727ebab62dc612387529.png

If I understand correctly what Rolle said it makes it seem that you also have to ask for OOC permission when using an in game weapon/game mechanic that could cause permanent damage without it even being emoted. All I want is this to be confirmed but no one has been able to give me a straight answer to a pretty straight question.

I didn't know that I needed to ask permission before I used in game mechanics to example stab/shot/etc someone in the leg/hand/etc during hostile RP. Because in the rules it seems to only apply to "beyond game mechanics". So I also wonder if we don't need to change the wording in the rules regarding powergaming to make it clear that all actions that leads to permanent damage would be considered powergaming without getting consent.

Because from the report that I've talked about they did an action that staff said would lead to a permanent scar without the perpetrators ever mentioning it. Jamie said this in a reply:

f6b9f40ff897f53103fd801bf9dfa049.png

I'm pretty sure that if you use a knife on someone that it would lead to a scar. Jamie says that if he doesn't emote that it leaves a scar then it's up to the hostage if he wants to roleplay it out or not. But from the report I've been referring to they only emoted out the action and not the consequences and then told the hostage that it was up to him if he wanted to roleplay it out or not. That was still looked at as powergaming. 

So if what Rolle said is true, that you have to ask for permission when also using in game items that would lead to a permanent scar it means that it's powergaming even if you don't state the consequences. It's even powergaming without stating the consequences if you emote doing an action that could lead to an permanent damage according to staff.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be but I can understand how it sounds confusing.

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Rolle    2450

I was assigned this thread by someone.

I think Roman that it all depends on the situation and severity of the damage you do. Crucifying someone to the three is pretty extreme, while punching someone repeatedly or even hitting with a gun will not leave long term marks. So I would say, if you're going into the extreme territories where normally a permanent damage would be the result or the way you do it is extreme, be on the safe side and ask for permission.

The torture RP on DayZRP has escalated in an abnormal way compared to what we had before. I am not sure of the reason why people need to constantly torture random strangers to get meaningless information, but I think the level of torture is now reaching the point where it's not needed or even appropriate. Hence the push to ask for permission in these situations so that the receiving party can also have a say and if they don't enjoy that kind of RP they're not forced to participate in it.

That's how I see it. I'm drunk, so disregard if the above does not make sense.

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I was assigned this thread by someone.

I think Roman that it all depends on the situation and severity of the damage you do. Crucifying someone to the three is pretty extreme, while punching someone repeatedly or even hitting with a gun will not leave long term marks. So I would say, if you're going into the extreme territories where normally a permanent damage would be the result or the way you do it is extreme, be on the safe side and ask for permission.

The torture RP on DayZRP has escalated in an abnormal way compared to what we had before. I am not sure of the reason why people need to constantly torture random strangers to get meaningless information, but I think the level of torture is now reaching the point where it's not needed or even appropriate. Hence the push to ask for permission in these situations so that the receiving party can also have a say and if they don't enjoy that kind of RP they're not forced to participate in it.

That's how I see it. I'm drunk, so disregard if the above does not make sense.

Alright, just so I understand you correctly and don't break the rules regarding powergaming. 

Regardless if it's with game mechanics or not, if I plan to shoot/stab someone in the leg/hand/penis etc using in game mechanics or via emotes (even without specifying the injury) I should ask for permission first since it would leave a permanent scar?

Yes, crucifying someone to a tree is extreme, but it was the possible permanent scar from the nail that were considered powergaming from staff even though the permanent damage/scar was never emoted. Eg; *Nails the man to a tree causing a scar to his hand*.

A scar that you would also receive if you swing a nailed bat on someone. So from my understanding it's not just "beyond game mechanics" that can be considered powergaming. One of the reasons why I made this thread was to see if we maybe need a better wording when it comes to the powergaming rule since I never knew that I couldn't use in game mechanics which would undoubtedly leave a permanent scar. I've also never experienced someone asking for permission when doing such action before gatting me in the leg with a bullet.

Do you think there's a need to clarifying the powergaming rule? Like I said, I might be the only one that didn't understand that everything that could lead to a permanent damage/scar even if it's with game mechanics is considered powergaming.

Thank you for responding, enjoy the alcohol and sorry if my question is confusing.

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