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Undead

When will it end pt. 2 Is there a fix for this?

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Undead    313

After the closing of the last thread as thumper has given up, as he probably feels he is ramming his head into a brick wall bringing the topic of staff bias up and having no results, I wanted open up this thread again to continue the discussion that was taking place at the time and so that hopefully more people who didn't see or post on the original thread( or people that have and wish to post again) can bring their opinions and views to this thread.

   

   I think it's an important issue to discuss and the question really is does staff bias exist and is there anything that can be done to fix it. I personally am of the opinion of that there is some bias. I hold this opinion from what I've seen over the last week, a couple of other issues, and the times back when I played three years ago with the bias then. As it seems from the many comments in the last thread tons of different people agree that there is bias, and that the ruling of that specific appeal was not correct. With so many community members that see this problem ,and I'm sure more that didn't post,  I cent help to see this as a serious problem that should be discussed. 

   As to solutions I have no idea how to fix it as Rolle certainly can not look at every report and decide whether or not he wants to give exceptions to rules or lower rulings for specific cases. Because let's be honest the fact that the reported was JimRP definitely played into the factor of Rolle personally overseeing his ban appeal and making a decision to over turn the staff team. Now as it's obviously impossible for Rolle to look at every report and make exceptions or lower punishment I guess that begs the question should one person be able to overturn decisions like that without a decision from the staff team.

 

 Unless I'm mistaken Rolle made the decision solo that the punishment should be reduced to a verbal warning ( as his right as owner of this entire lovely community of course) . However is that really the best thing for the community as it's causing so much dissent between community members and staff? Isn't that what the staff team is for and the reason that teams usually discuss these issues together and make a decision as a group. Wouldn't this somewhat abate at least SOME bias from the system. 

In conclusion I've listed some of my opinions here and I would love to hear some responses back with others opinions on the issue(if you even see an issue at all) . Thanks for taking your time to read this wall of text and excuse any organization or grammatical mistakes as I'm typing this up after staying up all night on a shitty tablet.  Looking forwards to any responses.

Also as a note to Wulfies last comment ,I was in the middle of replying when the thread was closed, unless I read thumpers comment wrong I don't think he said that you were the one view or follow botting your channel. I could have misread it as it's quite early but I'll go double check after I post this up. While I understand you put a huge amount of time and effort into your channel that doesn't negate the fact that one of your viewers could have easily paid to bot some followers to your channel . I don't think he was directly accusing you and the issue at hand isn't your channel followers anyway. The main issue is whether or not getting off so a slap on the wrists is okay where others would be punished .

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Melvin    84

-unsnips-

I am of the opinion that the points should have stayed and have raised my concerns. I wasn't happy Thumper's thread got closed as well. But who am I to say anything?

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Undead    313
snip?

  I pmed Rolle immediately after asking if he could re open it or if I should make my own thread and I was told to create my own so here we are. Hopefully we can get some solid discussion on the issue out of it. Also you are Chang. Stay strong in your quest to relevance friend :)

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Cipher    0

Thank you for bringing this back because I was thinking about reopening it even though I dont have much to add.

On JimRP's appeal I do not agree with him getting a verbal as it is clear he is really taking the piss with this, initiating the OOC at pretty much all the wrong times and almost baiting the other two into responding. He was the aggressor and the other two were simply looking to stop his OOC and I think thats why the other two got verbals. I mean come on, Jim posted the definition of mumbling as if the other two were stupid. Maybe Rolle sees it differently and thats why he overturned it but I think the original verdict was completely justified. Did Rolle overturn it because of bias? I dont really want to speculate.

But yeah thanks for continuing this discussion because it's definitely one we should be having.

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Diggy    0

Seems forum leniency has been replaced by IC rulebreak leniency to me. God forbid you respond to a warning PM with lmao amirite? Remove that guy from the community ASAP! People with little to no warning history are getting hit hard for the smallest forum BS while a PR manager beats an actual IC rulebreak. Makes me laugh.

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Jimmy!    0

I posted my 2 cents on the other thread. Glad someone brought it back, as I also considered it.

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Dora    0

Seems forum leniency has been replaced by IC rulebreak leniency to me. God forbid you respond to a warning PM with lmao amirite? Remove that guy from the community ASAP! People with little to no warning history are getting hit hard for the smallest forum BS while a PR manager beats an actual IC rulebreak. Makes me laugh.

I have a very clean warning history, and recommended someone to tweet their Gofundme to a youtuber I play Rust with for more publicity and got 5 warning points. Can't even appeal them either because Rolle took away my thread posting rights from a thread I created that 4-5 other staff members including an admin said it was ok to post.

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ThatRyanGuy    0

Thank you for bringing this back because I was thinking about reopening it even though I dont have much to add.

On JimRP's appeal I do not agree with him getting a verbal as it is clear he is really taking the piss with this, initiating the OOC at pretty much all the wrong times and almost baiting the other two into responding. He was the aggressor and the other two were simply looking to stop his OOC and I think thats why the other two got verbals. I mean come on, Jim posted the definition of mumbling as if the other two were stupid. Maybe Rolle sees it differently and thats why he overturned it but I think the original verdict was completely justified. Did Rolle overturn it because of bias? I dont really want to speculate.

But yeah thanks for continuing this discussion because it's definitely one we should be having.

I agree with pretty much everything Cipher says here

I was under the impression that ban appeals were for if new evidence was brought in or a new explanation for the events can be given. If the GMs decided to give Jim points while the others warnings I'm sure there was good reason, but maybe I'm missing something?

Anyway that's just my irrelevant opinion

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Harry    18

Yeah i can see where you coming  from , even trough i did not really felt like his OCC was that bad. I still found it to be unnecessary so staff or not i would just have given him the same punishment.

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Cipher    0

Thank you for bringing this back because I was thinking about reopening it even though I dont have much to add.

On JimRP's appeal I do not agree with him getting a verbal as it is clear he is really taking the piss with this, initiating the OOC at pretty much all the wrong times and almost baiting the other two into responding. He was the aggressor and the other two were simply looking to stop his OOC and I think thats why the other two got verbals. I mean come on, Jim posted the definition of mumbling as if the other two were stupid. Maybe Rolle sees it differently and thats why he overturned it but I think the original verdict was completely justified. Did Rolle overturn it because of bias? I dont really want to speculate.

But yeah thanks for continuing this discussion because it's definitely one we should be having.

I agree with pretty much everything Cipher says here

I was under the impression that ban appeals were for if new evidence was brought in or a new explanation for the events can be given. If the GMs decided to give Jim points while the others warnings I'm sure there was good reason, but maybe I'm missing something?

Anyway that's just my irrelevant opinion

Right. All Jim really did was re-explain the situation and apologize profusely. Nothing really new to add to his defense.

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Strider    0

I have been in a single report since I've joined the community and it was for posting a POV more as a witness than anything. So I've never broken a rule IG but I was placed on final warning (29 points and not the standard 25 points final usually gets) for a bunch of unnecessary posts, granted the 15 points I got in two weeks were bad but being placed on final for minor forum shitposting while we have people who break actual IG rules and have shown a clear misunderstanding of the rules in the past but keep getting "second chances" is a bit disheartening. Not here to argue my final warning just used it as an example to show how I feel like a lot of things are done with extreme bias (positive or negative bias) towards certain people.

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Dishes    159

I was not aware that JimRP had his points removed and I have got to say, I'm not pleased in hearing how they were removed. 

I personally do not believe Rolle should have touched his appeal at all since its no secret they are friends. However, as said, it is Rolle's community, he can literally do whatever he wants. I can say from first hand experience that the Staff Team tries very hard to remain unbiased but I cannot speak on Rolle's personal behalf. So simply put, Rolle has the right to the last say in everything. 

Now moving over to the "Staff Biased" topic. Again, I'll say I know first hand how hard staff tries to remain unbiased, but people need to remember they are not robots, they have feelings and opinions too. There are policies within staff that are put in place to prevent this bias, however it's difficult for everyone to look at something with 100% unbiased whether you wanna believe it or not, everyone has personal opinions, believes, morals. Some people are far less lenient on certain subjects than others, and not every situation is handled by the same team. Different people, different time zones, all of the above applies to them. So a team could have handled an issue earlier, and then another  team handles an issue later that night, it could go over a little differently. 

Now, look at the amount of reports that have been solved. All generally have the same outcome, if rules are broken, there is a punishment of some sort. Staff slips up sometimes, yes, and lately there has been hell to pay for it on the forums, but generally staff does a damn fine job with everything they do. No one on staff is being paid for this, they all volunteered for this to help out the community that we all love and I really think they should be given a little more slack. I appreciate the community's concerns in these matters, however it's important to keep in mind that there is no absolutely perfect system anywhere in the world, and DayZRP is no exception.

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Post    0

In some cases there are situations in which your status and role should play a factor. Firstly this isn't the first report JimRP has been in, and secondly as a co-owner and PR manager he represents the community in a large part. If that had been anyone else hands down they would have been banned and denied. A co-owner should know better, and again this isn't the first time - this isn't even the worse rule broken by this person either. If he's just untouchable, at just be honest and state it.

How many times are we going to give a verbal warning to someone who owns the server, who should know the rules by now like any other community member.

Edit:

But hey if it helps, JimRP you should probably know you shouldn't just gun people down, and then offer them gear back after they died. Returning gear is a breach of NLR, and not really something you may want to be offering on a stream:

https://www.twitch.tv/riggsee/v/92877398?t=01h28m03s

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Nihoolious    1248

Bias will never disappear. Welcome to DayZRP.

/thread.

Its sad how true that is. 

Rolle has a history of personally dealing with things on here and because he runs the show his word is final. This honestly was not a surprise and as depressing as it sounds it shouldn't be. Things like this are going to continue happening and we can't do anything about it. Threads like this help us vent and give suggestions but that's it. Nothing comes out of it.

This is a fight not worth fighting.

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Rampage    0

In all honesty I think there is a problem. Again no attack on Jim as a person because I've had plenty of good conversations. I think though he really needs to familiarize himself with the rules and understand the RP culture here. I'm not liking the pattern of what I see here. The thing that has aided in the success and longevity of Dayzrp is the quality of the staff team and making sure biases are kept to a minimum.

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Jango    47

Bias will never disappear. Welcome to DayZRP.

/thread.

Its sad how true that is. 

Rolle has a history of personally dealing with things on here and because he runs the show his word is final. This honestly was not a surprise and as depressing as it sounds it shouldn't be. Things like this are going to continue happening and we can't do anything about it. Threads like this help us vent and give suggestions but that's it. Nothing comes out of it.

This is a fight not worth fighting.

I agree with Nihoolious, they're have been several reports on more than one occasion throughout my tenure, in which I felt Staff/Administration dropped the ball on situations. This isn't the first time someone has spoken out on it and probably isn't the last but at the end of the day, if nothing is gonna change than this is just another pointless thread.

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Voodoo    491

Was at work so unable to write all this before the thread closed:

The staff needs to go back to its foundation standards. This is a community that was built to provide decent RP using DayZ as its base.

For this community to work everyone must be treated the same. The community will not get better if punishments for rules are made up on the spot and different outcomes arrive for different people. With recent events it just shows that this community will not improve:

http://www.dayzrp.com/t-DayZRP-becoming-stale

The above is part of a concern many have discussed, whether new or old there should be no leniency when it comes to the rules and punishments for breaking them rules. The only way the community can grow and improve is with a fair system where if you break a rule you receive the same punishment as everyone else and learn from your mistakes. This has always been the way since the community began and clears out the dead wood that don't want to abide by the rules or RP seriously. Even when I was new (like many others) we didn't need leniency, the rules are simple and if you break them then you only have yourself to blame.

The report in question: http://www.dayzrp.com/t-S2-Excessive-OOC-South-of-Guglovo-07-10-16-Around-03-30-03-40?pid=1600944#pid1600944

Clearly shows too much OOC text which when I was a GM we would punish for no matter of the members status. Instead of the OOC, the ingame events should have played out then the person in question make a report on powergaming if they feel it was. I don't even think the verbals are valid for the others in the report, there is no need to go OOC at all when playing and doing OOC smiling faces is a definite piece of OOC that is not needed. We as staff would always have seen it that way both in MOD and SA as we aim to see a high standard of RP on the servers. With this outcome via Ban appeal it not only sets a bad example for new members (its fine to go OOC alot you just get away with it) but also shows staff members in a bad light. The last time all this drama happened with verdicts overturned we saw a walk out of the admins. Surely as a staff member a verbal warning is not enough? What happened to staff strikes which anyone else in the staff team would have received in this instance? 

Its time these lenient rules imposed in June are scraped and the community goes back to a fairer system where if you break the rules you are punished like everyone else, its the only way this can improve. You cannot enforce the rules if you break them.

#MakeRPGreatAgain


I don't understand how the overruling can be justified under the new rules to be lenient since June when you have others such as:

http://www.dayzrp.com/t-S2-attempted-kos-excessive-ooc-metagaming-NVFL-20-7-2016-around-18-40?pid=1520100#pid1520100

http://www.dayzrp.com/t-S3-Excessive-OOC-Mass-KoS-in-Kabanino-to-Vybor-30-06-2016-02-45?pid=1494602#pid1494602

And the rules are pretty clear:

538967d607.png

The people in these reports must also receive a verbal punishment should they not? and the punishments adjusted.

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Dishes    159

In some cases there are situations in which your status and role should play a factor. Firstly this isn't the first report JimRP has been in, and secondly as a co-owner and PR manager he represents the community in a large part. If that had been anyone else hands down they would have been banned and denied. A co-owner should know better, and again this isn't the first time - this isn't even the worse rule broken by this person either. If he's just untouchable, at just be honest and state it.

How many times are we going to give a verbal warning to someone who owns the server, who should know the rules by now like any other  community member.

Edit:

But hey if it helps, JimRP you should probably know you shouldn't just gun people down, and then offer them gear back after they died. Returning gear is a breach of NLR, and not really something you may want to be offering on a stream:

https://www.twitch.tv/riggsee/v/92877398?t=01h28m03s

I would like to add to this, and though my previous statement is still valid (#15), Staff Members should be held to higher standards than the rest of the community.

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Mamba    0

In all honesty I think there is a problem. Again no attack on Jim as a person because I've had plenty of good conversations. I think though he really needs to familiarize himself with the rules and understand the RP culture here. I'm not liking the pattern of what I see here. The thing that has aided in the success and longevity of Dayzrp is the quality of the staff team and making sure biases are kept to a minimum.

-snip- I'll just speak to you on teamspeak

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isocade    90

If the rules are not enforced or enforced too strictly, remove them. All they do is cause barriers and obstacles for people in order to do what they want.

For the past five years I've co-owned a community and have been the primary person every staff member and community member goes to for either help, questions, reports, or otherwise. It was extremely hard to put my opinions and emotions behind me because that's what makes us human, especially if it was someone asking a question or talking about a report and I heavily disliked the person. 

You know what I found out I had to do? Get someone else to handle it. It's such an easy fix. Have someone who has no connection or camaraderie with the offender make the verdict. That's how it always worked. Someone on staff breaks a rule, have someone else on staff who doesn't really know the other person too well jump in and look at the facts and make a decision. 

I got reported multiple times for a rule break or have been contacted about a ban that I gave someone and they wanted to appeal it, and regardless of whether I said sorry or not, if a rule had been broken or a ban was inappropriate, the verdict was given and I was punished. Regardless of staff position, if you get reported and you most definitely broke a rule, you absolutely should get punished for it. I've seen people say sorry for rule breaks in the past and some of them end up getting permanently banned with little to no explanation outside of "You know what you were doing". That's a cunty thing to do in my opinion, but I don't say shit because they broke a rule and they were punished for it. 

See the point here? They broke a rule, which warrants a punishment, and then they receive the punishment.

A staff member is reported and says sorry for a rule break, then gets off practically free. 

Inconceivable. They broke a rule, which warrants a punishment, but they do not receive the punishment.

If I knew it was so easy to get away with that kind of stuff, I'd have started doing streaming, donating, and staff applications a long time ago.

That is not directed at anyone in particular. The general consensus of the community seems to be that people with a particular title, time on the server, or amount of money gorged into the product are getting away with things no one else would be getting away with.

If the issue is that people on staff are friends and buddies with one another, then that needs to fixed immediately. If everyone on staff knows everyone else on staff, no matter what, it will cause bias toward or against one another depending on their interactions.

I'm not saying "Don't be social with your staff members", I'm saying "Separate business and pleasure". I do that for every server and community I've done administrative work for and it's always worked out in the end because things get done properly and professionally.

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Storm    215

I've seen staff members get hit with a guilty verdict and banned like everyone else. Difference between them and the co-owner is that they didn't donate thousands of euro's. It doesn't look good when you see one owner backing up another owner. Its quite similar to someones group member getting banned and then someone else in the group unbanning them.

To be honest, I'd be biased towards someone that threw a shitload of cash at me too. So I'd distance myself to avoid that, which is what Rolle should have done.

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