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Nooby.Nooby.Do_

KOS rules and context question

Question

Hello survivors!

I'm thinking about applying to the server, and was curious about the KOS rules:

  • KOS (kill on sight) is when a guy randomly kills people without any context or RP (PVP). 
  • Context is the situation that creates the range of possible RP paths that a character can take for his actions.
  • You gain Killing rights if someone "initiates" on someone of your group or on yourself
  • By Initiation I would understand any action that gives your character a hint about the bad intention of another one.

 

Since people by default are "neutral", forming a single group called society. And when some members of the society decide to harm others (be it economically, physically or psychologically) they automatically become antisocial elements, they create another group, relatively isolated and contrary to the first one. 

If my character, which is part of the first group (aka normal people), sees that some members of the second group (antisocial elements, bandits,etc) are "initiating" on another "normal" player (gun raised, torture, active shooting, etc), does my character gain killing rights as a defense of his group against the enemy? 

i.e. I'm looting a town, hear screams, go into the area and see 3 guys torturing another one. I stay there listening to know what's all the fuzz about, and hear a cannibal laugh. It becomes clear to my character that those 3 guys are from the "enemy group" and that they:

  1. Initiated on one player of my own group (normal people)
  2. They gonna kill they player and eat him (killing one of my group)
  3. They represent a mortal danger to my character

Since my character is alone, and not very well geared, he only have 2 viable options:

  • Get a good position and take down the bad guys (or force them to run at least)
  • Move along and let one of "my people" die

(Since they are more, and better equipped, direct RP interaction will mean that I'll be captured too, and will lose my gear as minimum and my life as maximum. So this option becomes ilogical for my character, since his life is above anything else)

According to the rules of the server, is my character in his right to "do the right thing"? Or the rules go above the value of his life?

That was the first question. 

Now. Is there any list of what is considered as an initiation? 

For example, can be counted as initiation the following?:

  • Encounter a guy WITHOUT weapon in hands, tell him that all is cool, just wanna check if he is ok. He then takes a weapon to hands.
  • Encounter a guy WITH a weapon in hands, but he's looking to another side. I tell him to not turn around and drop the gun. He turns towards me.
  • Encounter a guy WITH a weapon in hands, I didn't asked him to hide it, was friendly. He then rises it. 

And last but not least. If I find myself running in a town or in the forest. And suddenly some unseen groups start a shooting. I'm alone there, any of the sides can count me as a potential enemy and KOS me. Do I have killing rights to defend myself, or to join any of the sides? (lets say one of them use clown masks, and I dont like that)

To explain my questions: I play neutral, leaning towards hero. I usually go lone wolf, but not PVE, I like interactions. And I roleplay as myself in a thought situation (probably some background changes), so it all feels really immersive and exciting for me. I'm really afraid of dying, since it would mean that I really died in that situation and my hearts goes crazy with any shot fired in the area where I am. 

The logic behind these questions is what would my character/I could do in the described situations. So my RP depends a lot of the context (or the environmental info my character receives). Seeing a person abusing, harming or praying on another, is like an indirect initiation on my character.

I see that bandits gain the upperhand in the game: they get fast/easy gear. And I think (as in real life) they should take the risk for going "against" the other players, by being more exposed to be killed if someone uncovers their identity (specially with cannibals)

Thanks in advance for the replies!

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Nihoolious    1122

If you observe random people robbing or harming another random person, you cannot intervene via shooting on sight, you have to initiate. An initiation is giving a demand and stating a consequence to someone else in a hostile manner. "Drop your weapon now or I shoot" for example. It has to be clear and has to include demands and the consequence of they are not followed.

You character's well character can not circumvent the rules. We all need to abide by these rules and despite what your character might want to do he needs to make the choice that is within the rules.

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Clumsy    144

Going to try and break this down piece by piece for you so let's start from the top.

b86365b5bd.png

You seem to be misunderstanding the use of groups here. If you go here you will see a list of all the official groups as well as group ideas. Each of these groups have different people in them with different characters. Groups are not split up between normal people and crazy people. They are made up of actual groups with their own lore and back story. The only way you can gain KOS rights is by the following.

df9e49a67a.png

You have to have been within 500 meters (which by your story you say you were in the area) and you need to have been apart of the group involved in the situation. You can be a part of a group in two ways. Dynamic or Official. To explain this in an easy manner, say you ran into this person down the road and you two traveled for awhile. Helping each other out and generally being friend with them. Teaming up in a way. That would make you Dynamic. A short term group. Official means you are a part of one of the groups listed in the group forums. You are apart of their roster meaning you are an official group.

91b52245fe.png

If you have never met the person before and you come across the situation you need to initiate. There is no 'good Samaritan' in this game. If you have never met the person being tortured before you do not have KOS rights on the bandits. You also need to take into consideration your own characters life. If you are alone and it's you versus three chances are if you initiate they are going to kill you. AS SOON as you initiate they gain KOS rights on you. 

Now IF you were traveling around with the person  and you split up to loot around and you come across the incident you were apart of the Dynamic group and as long as you were within 500 meters when it happens you have KOS rights on the group of guys. This also applies to if you are apart of an official group. 

91b52245fe.png

As stated this could be seen as NO VALUE FOR LIFE. Your characters life is the most important and you have to act like it. If they have better equipment then you, (IE: Better guns) chances are you will die. Even if you meet every requirement to have KOS rights you need to think smart and decide if you would make it out alive or not. You also need to keep in mind the person who they have hostage as they can make a demand and threaten to kill that person if you do not comply. 

Also hearing the cannibal laugh and using it IG to identify cannibals can be considered meta gaming. Unless your character has read or come across knowledge of kuru you would not be able to use the information. The laugh In game is uncontrollably and the person playing the character can't help if it goes off. It could ruin someones RP if they do not want that information revealed and would be wrong to use the knowledge if your character doesn't actually know what it is. 

91d98f101f.png

A valid initiation is aiming your gun and giving a demand as well as a consequence if the demand isn't followed. Simply aiming a gun and talking in a hostile manner is not an initiation. Example: While aiming your gun you say "Drop the weapon on the ground and put your hands up or I'll shoot". You can get creative with initiations but you need to give a demand as well as what will happen if they do not comply. IF they do not comply with your demand you gain KOS rights and can shoot. HOWEVER we prioritize Roleplay over everything else. If they are not a threat to you (example: they don't have a gun out) it is always best to repeat the initiation and give them plenty of time to comply. The game can be a bit wonky with it comes to voice so sometimes people lag and don't hear. 

I would say if you have any other questions you should jump on Teamspeak and head up to the helpdesk. The Community Helpers can assist you in anything else you would like to know. :)

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Thanks for the detailed reply! :D

Ok the deal with the strangers is clear.

But I still have some doubts about the initiation:

A lot of times I came to a situation like this one

My end-game while I play is to stay alive as long as it is possible (got to 2 months once), without limiting the interactions and going PVE. I came to a lot of bad endings through my various lifes, and "reading" the other player´s intentions was always one of the main focuses of my playstyle.

The examples I´ve given are taken from real ingame situations, where the signals went wrong, and it all ended up badly for me because of my willing blindness to recognize those as "initiations" against me, it would give me a little moment where I could had defended myself (shooting first).

Like in the video I quoted, the guy had a considerable chance to take the non compliant player, but it ended up in him dying...

I mention this because I play permadeath (unless the death was caused by a bug) and if die by a bullet, I´m done, and if I let another player take me out first, even if I can report him later, it just ruins my immersion and I totally lose interest in the character. :/

Also in the first 2 examples of initiation I gave, the guy didn´t followed a direct order. I understand that the game can be laggy at times, but I must say that like 90% of the times it´s really clear when the other player is lagging or something.

And last, what about the last question about being caught in a crossfire?

Thanks in advance! :)

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   21

Hello there Nooby

To answer your first question, if someone has initiated on your group, whether it be dynamic or official, you gain kos rights on the individuals that initiated as long as it doesn't break other rules such as metagaming and you aren't outside the 500m boundry. If you are outside of the 500m boundry, you have to reinitiate.

If you see someone initiate on a random survivor and want to play the good samaritan, you have to reinitiate because you do not have kos rights.

About the no value for life part, it is just very situational. If you aren't very well geared, you're very unlikely to survive against more than two well geared people.

For you second question, my answers will be highlighted under the examples you gave.

Now. Is there any list of what is considered as an initiation?

For example, can be counted as initiation the following?:

  • Encounter a guy WITHOUT weapon in hands, tell him that all is cool, just wanna check if he is ok. He then takes a weapon to hands. 
    Taking out a weapon can just be for their own protection because they might think you are a threat and are just being cautious. This is not an initiation
  • Encounter a guy WITH a weapon in hands, but he's looking to another side. I tell him to not turn around and drop the gun. He turns towards me.
     If the guy turns around with his gun still in hands, he is a threat and the kill is valid. If he drops his gun and turns around, he is still being uncompliant, however there is no need to kill him because he is no longer a threat to you. Roleplay always comes before killing someone.
  • Encounter a guy WITH a weapon in hands, I didn't asked him to hide it, was friendly. He then rises it.
    Again having a weapon in your hands doesn't count as an initiation, even if the weapon is raised.

And for your last question, if you encounter a firefight, you cannot join sides because you do not have any kos rights, and it is best to leave the area as quickly as possible, even raising your hands and walking away to show you're no threat.

Finally, I will leave you some useful guides which will help with things such as being a hero, dealing with hostile rp and understanding insane characters and cannibals

http://www.dayzrp.com/t-SkyLab-s-Basic-Hero-Guide

http://www.dayzrp.com/t-Echo-guide-to-hostile-RP

http://www.dayzrp.com/t-Iceinfly-s-Guide-to-Insane-Characters-Cannibals

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask :)

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  • Taking out a weapon can just be for their own protection because they might think you are a threat and are just being cautious. This is not an initiation

Hi! Thanks for the reply, you helped me a lot understanding the rules logic!

I only have an additional question for the part I'm quoting: Since I was the one that initiated the interaction, and wanted to be sure I have the control of the situation, isn't his action (taking a gun into hands) directly opposing what I asked him, and taking away the upper hand from me, becoming a potential danger for my character?

Because if the guy is friendly, he just gonna comply and follow my RP. The act of taking a gun into hands is a sign of preparation from his side to attack me. 

Of course all viewed from my characters side. Doesn't the other guy have to take that in count when he's disobeying my command?

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   21

Like I said, it doesn't count as an initiation just because he has his gun out. If you feel threatened when he brings out his gun, you could initiate yourself and disarm him but until then no initiation has occured.

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Like I said, it doesn't count as an initiation just because he has his gun out. If you feel threatened when he brings out his gun, you could initiate yourself and disarm him but until then no initiation has occured.

O.o Ok now I'm really confused lol

How many initiations should be in that situation?

Because I already initiated on the guy (let's say he didn't heard me coming), I'm with my weapon up, asked the guy to stay disarmed, and I'm continuing with some other questions to get an idea about who the guy is and what he's doing there. He then pulls his weapon out.

I have to reinitiate, after he disobeyed my command, and start everything from the beginning? O.o 

gdflkgjldkfg lol

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Rolle    2473

1. First you must have an in character reason to initiate hostilities against someone. For example the person is a member of enemy group or they have robbed you in the past.

2. You initiate hostilities only once - you tell the person to drop their weapon and put their hands up. Remember that the request must be clear and unambiguous - it must be very clear to everyone around that you are threatening them with force and demand them to drop weapons or else they will be shot.

3. The second you've done that (also called 'initiation'), the person and his friends may use lethal force against you to defend themselves. So don't be surprised if you suddenly drop dead before you even finished the initiation sentence :)

4. Give the person reasonable time to comply. If the person doesn't obey your order, but is not a threat to you or your group (by putting the weapon up to shoot for example) then repeat the command, continue RP, give them a reasonable time to comply. If they still don't drop the weapon as you asked after repeated commands, knock them out with a melee weapon and disarm them yourself.

Here we split into two paths.

5. The person complies - they drop the weapon, you disarm them and continue the RP by questioning them or whatever you wanted to do.

6. The person doesn't comply, attempts to aim at you or your group, shoots back, runs away, etc. You can kill them.

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RedSky    123

Hey there,

Okay so let me start of with the fact that you bring up valid points these are situation that would play out differently in real life.

Therefor the rules block a situation how they would normally progress for the sake of RP.

Now I see that you are getting a lot of confusion because everyone is telling you initiating is the way to go.

That is a logical answer but there are different ways to act on these situation that would potentially be more fun considering it would make more sense in an RP situation. Now I have quoted everything down below and I am on my turn going to give you another potential list of ways you can deal with these situations. I will also clearly state what does and does not give you KOS rights.

I am also aware I will cover alot of things Pixel has already covered, but I hope a second perspective helps you considering the answers raised a couple of more questions.

If my character, which is part of the first group (aka normal people), sees that some members of the second group (antisocial elements, bandits,etc) are "initiating" on another "normal" player (gun raised, torture, active shooting, etc), does my character gain killing rights as a defense of his group against the enemy? 

i.e. I'm looting a town, hear screams, go into the area and see 3 guys torturing another one. I stay there listening to know what's all the fuzz about, and hear a cannibal laugh. It becomes clear to my character that those 3 guys are from the "enemy group" and that they:

  1. Initiated on one player of my own group (normal people)
  2. They gonna kill they player and eat him (killing one of my group)
  3. They represent a mortal danger to my character

Since my character is alone, and not very well geared, he only have 2 viable options:

  • Get a good position and take down the bad guys (or force them to run at least)
  • Move along and let one of "my people" die

(Since they are more, and better equipped, direct RP interaction will mean that I'll be captured too, and will lose my gear as minimum and my life as maximum. So this option becomes ilogical for my character, since his life is above anything else)

According to the rules of the server, is my character in his right to "do the right thing"? Or the rules go above the value of his life?

That was the first question. 

As already stated before this doesn't grant you KOS rights. But there are different ways to deal with this situation that could play out in your favour.

You could potentially start a good HostileRP with them (your character does not need to be a bandit to do this either, HostileRP is a wide term that represent any hostile act including but not limited to: Anger, intimidation, fear, annoyance.

A couple of ways that could deal with this situation if let's say the person you are not affiliated with but you seem to observe as a "good guy" and still want to help him would be.

A. (Lie/bluff) Approach the group in a hostile manner claiming to be one of the mans friend and have backup.  [This does not give you KOS rights]

The problem with this way of fixing the situation is that it most of the time doesn't end well you will be outnumbered initiated upon and captured.

However it could potentially start fun RP in which you make a friend in a very dire situation if offcourse you do not lose your life in the situation.

B. (Initiate) You could potentially seek a spot close to them within voip range and initiate on these people.

Chances are they wont comply and it will get you KOS rights if they indeed do not comply. But there are problems with this in itself, despite that your character might actually have the personality to do this good deed it would be seen as NVFL, you are taking a fight with odd's that are unlikely to be won in most situations. Not only that if they actually do end up complying what will one person do to keep multiple people from retaliating against him? Again in this situation you will probably not come out favourable.

C. (Seek Help) This might sound strange but it is actually very logical. In your time around in the apocalypse you will learn to know people you will get there frequency and if they like you, well than they will help you. Meaning after awhile it wont just be you that could help out this stranger and would leave you with more safer options to turn the situation in your favour which eventually would allow you to initiate on them with favourable outcome.

However let me stress that strongarming the hostage takers out of their hostage will be more satisfying then having a firefight. Whatever way has more RP will be alot more fun. But that might just be personal opinion.

Now. Is there any list of what is considered as an initiation? 

For example, can be counted as initiation the following?:

  • Encounter a guy WITHOUT weapon in hands, tell him that all is cool, just wanna check if he is ok. He then takes a weapon to hands.
    This is not an initiation. It is a safety feature. Alot of people on the server take their gun in their hands if they are uncertain about the situation.It might come over as pretty hostile but it isn't meant like that it's just so they can shoot when they get initiated upon.
  • Encounter a guy WITH a weapon in hands, but he's looking to another side. I tell him to not turn around and drop the gun. He turns towards me.
    Now this is an initiation from your side towards him. If he turns around while you stated that he isn't allowed to and put the gun away. You get valid rights like Pixel has mentioned before. But from what I hear you want to be the good guy. So I will state again you could fix this without an initiation. Stand behind an object and yell something along the lines of:   "Hey man I ain't looking for any trouble or anything.... bu..but that gun of yours is making me a bit uncomfortable so for the love of god put it away will ya? I mean I dont want us to start shooting one another"
  • Encounter a guy WITH a weapon in hands, I didn't asked him to hide it, was friendly. He then rises it.
    Just like Pixel mentioned before raising a weapon against someone is not an initiation.An initiation needs a clear demand to be stated together with a threat for when it doesn't get followed. "DROP YOUR WEAPON OR I WILL SHOOT" is one of the most common ones youll hear on the server. To break it down real quick The Yellow part is the demand. He needs to drop his weapon. If he does not you will get KOS rights, however make certain you give him ample time to comply with the demand.(anywhere between 5 to 10 seconds is reasonable below that is argueable and almost impossible due to lag, desync and the time it takes for someone to realise to do something.)The Pink part is arguably the most important part of the initiation and how to indentify one. It makes the initiation valid because it means there is a consequence if you do not followThe Green part is the consequence for when you do not follow up and is what grants the initiator the KOS rights when a person does not comply. Now an initiation needs all three of these elements. A Demand and A consequence. The OR part will simply always have to be there or your sentence would make no sense.Some newer people in this community often get "I will fucking shoot you I swear" or "I'll kill you" mixed up with initiations. But they are not.It is missing a demand, these things are simply meant to further RP with you in the future. It doesn't grant either party KOS rights.

And last but not least. If I find myself running in a town or in the forest. And suddenly some unseen groups start a shooting. I'm alone there, any of the sides can count me as a potential enemy and KOS me. Do I have killing rights to defend myself, or to join any of the sides? (lets say one of them use clown masks, and I dont like that)

When 2 groups have a firefight and you find yourself in the middle it is best to not start shooting or take your gun out. If you arent actively part of either the dynamic of 1 of the two groups or the actual group itself. It means that you are an innocent by stander. To help both people in the firefight to not accidently KOS you without any rights I recommend putting your gun on your back and Jogging out of the area away from the shots. Sprinting could be seen as a hostile manouvre. And walking would be borderline NVFL. So put the gun away and just jog. Also make certain in these situations to not have an armband or any other definitive things that might make people mis-indentify their targets inside of a firefight.

To explain my questions: I play neutral, leaning towards hero. I usually go lone wolf, but not PVE, I like interactions. And I roleplay as myself in a thought situation (probably some background changes), so it all feels really immersive and exciting for me. I'm really afraid of dying, since it would mean that I really died in that situation and my hearts goes crazy with any shot fired in the area where I am. 

The logic behind these questions is what would my character/I could do in the described situations. So my RP depends a lot of the context (or the environmental info my character receives). Seeing a person abusing, harming or praying on another, is like an indirect initiation on my character.

I see that bandits gain the upperhand in the game: they get fast/easy gear. And I think (as in real life) they should take the risk for going "against" the other players, by being more exposed to be killed if someone uncovers their identity (specially with cannibals)

Thanks in advance for the replies!

I only have an additional question for the part I'm quoting: Since I was the one that initiated the interaction, and wanted to be sure I have the control of the situation, isn't his action (taking a gun into hands) directly opposing what I asked him, and taking away the upper hand from me, becoming a potential danger for my character?

Because if the guy is friendly, he just gonna comply and follow my RP. The act of taking a gun into hands is a sign of preparation from his side to attack me. 

I am going to answer your question here real quickly. Even a good guy will not comply with your demand. People see an initiation as a start of a robbery, and therefor retaliate when they feel they can. This is why I personally encourage you to fix this with HostileRP rather then initiations.

It will make the RP alot more intresting and also less likely for bullets to start flying.

Of course all viewed from my characters side. Doesn't the other guy have to take that in count when he's disobeying my command?

Like I said, it doesn't count as an initiation just because he has his gun out. If you feel threatened when he brings out his gun, you could initiate yourself and disarm him but until then no initiation has occured.

O.o Ok now I'm really confused lol

How many initiations should be in that situation?

Because I already initiated on the guy (let's say he didn't heard me coming), I'm with my weapon up, asked the guy to stay disarmed, and I'm continuing with some other questions to get an idea about who the guy is and what he's doing there. He then pulls his weapon out.

I have to reinitiate, after he disobeyed my command, and start everything from the beginning? O.o 

No you do not need to reinitiate, you have already initiated. If you tell him to not turn around and put his weapon on his back or youll shoot it would've been a valid initiation. And therefor him turning around would mean you get KOS rights. Just make certain your command has a consequence to it. like I explained earlier because otherwise it will be an invalid initiation and therefor you would RDM him if you'd shoot.

gdflkgjldkfg lol

Have all of your questions been answered OP?

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Thanks guys! Ok, now I get the deal! :)

I just want to avoid being killed due to things that I could've controlled better. Since I really value my chars life (When my 2 months old char died, I seriously had a hard hit for a couple of days lol). I'll use initiation only as last resort if i'm feeling like really being at risk, or I suspect something odd with the player I encounter.

Thanks again! :D

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RedSky    123

Glad we could help if you have any more questions feel free to ask any CH in the helpdesk or make another thread.

/Solved

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Lankin    102

Those are some pretty good questions you are asking, for someone who is new. Reading and understanding the rules is one thing, but being IG and applying them can be tricky at times, especially for new players to the community. Advice, take it or leave, reach out to someone and ask to roll around with them for a while, I was fortunate when I first started playing on the servers that the first person I met had been here a while, so I had some guidance when I first started playing. Goodluck dude.

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