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Brickity

KOS rights when chased

Question

My question is related to the following solved report.

In the report, the accused was found guilty of an invalid initiation due to throwing a flash bang at the OP's party.

As Jamie stated, the accused must have KOS rights when using any type of grenade. 

However in the past it was determined that chasing another player for a prolonged length of time was considered a hostile action and granted KOS rights (if needed I can search for an old report). 

Did this change at some point? 

I understand that the rules have changed in many ways since the Mod days especially in regards to prioritising role-play over rule-play, however I was not aware that this rule may have changed.

This rule in particular did have a grey area based on length of time and distance that the player was chased, however in this particular scenario the accused was chased by 7 players for a distance of close to 5km and I'm having a hard time understanding how that cannot be considered hostile.

Can someone confirm this for me?

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I think what you are referring to is when you are asked several times to stop following. That's when it becomes a hostile action. That is when you gain KoS rights. However, in the report above the accused is simply running. Then throws a flashbang etc.

It's hard to say whether both cases are entirely different, but perhaps the verdict was due to the fact that the accused only received a verbal warning for avoiding rp. His punishment could have been more severe, however he was let off with a verbal warning and a less strenuous punishment.

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As far as I was aware, you have always been required to initiate on the person/people chasing you in order to gain any sort of KoS... i.e. Stop following me or I'll be forced to shoot... etc.

If you believe that KoS Rights should be granted from being followed for a lengthy amount of time, I think a suggestion thread should be made.

But to answer your question, I was always made aware that you should initiate...

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As far as I was aware, you have always been required to initiate on the person/people chasing you in order to gain any sort of KoS... i.e. Stop following me or I'll be forced to shoot... etc.

If you believe that KoS Rights should be granted from being followed for a lengthy amount of time, I think a suggestion thread should be made.

But to answer your question, I was always made aware that you should initiate...

When in doubt intiate^

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Fact: Flashbangs can kill people.

So no matter of the scenario (getting chased, someone is standing infront of you and shittalks) if you throw a flashbang without having KoS rights and without a proper initiation -I quote out of the rules:

-You have to make contact with the target before initiating a hostile action against it. You must make your hostile intention clear and unambiguous and state each demand before you can harm the victim(s) for non-compliance-

it is a hostile action and therefore:

1. Invalid initiation

2. If the person does not die - attempted RDM or KoS (that depends if contact was made or not)

Nowhere do we say in the rules that you can kill someone because he is chasing you. We had this rule in the mod.

We simply cannot make more and more extra rules for different scenarios.

If someone is chasing you and you tell that person to stop and the person does not stop, baiting can be discussed.

If you kill a person because he is chasing you after you told him to stop, but that person does not stop and you have not initiated nor KoS rights on the person, then baiting for the guy and RDM for the shooter has to be discussed and has to be judged based of the evidence, from case to case as not every case is the same.

Have in mind, that as soon as you would initiate on the guy who follows you, HE gains KoS rights on YOU but technicially IF he would just kill you right after your initiation, baiting and ruleplay has to be discussed.

Reporting such a situation without having a video is in my opinion the hardest part as there is no way to prove the story and it would be most likely word against word.

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Is it more understandable now, Brickity?

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Fact: Flashbangs can kill people.

So no matter of the scenario (getting chased, someone is standing infront of you and shittalks) if you throw a flashbang without having KoS rights and without a proper initiation -I quote out of the rules:

-You have to make contact with the target before initiating a hostile action against it. You must make your hostile intention clear and unambiguous and state each demand before you can harm the victim(s) for non-compliance-

it is a hostile action and therefore:

1. Invalid initiation

2. If the person does not die - attempted RDM or KoS (that depends if contact was made or not)

Nowhere do we say in the rules that you can kill someone because he is chasing you. We had this rule in the mod.

We simply cannot make more and more extra rules for different scenarios.

If someone is chasing you and you tell that person to stop and the person does not stop, baiting can be discussed.

If you kill a person because he is chasing you after you told him to stop, but that person does not stop and you have not initiated nor KoS rights on the person, then baiting for the guy and RDM for the shooter has to be discussed and has to be judged based of the evidence, from case to case as not every case is the same.

Have in mind, that as soon as you would initiate on the guy who follows you, HE gains KoS rights on YOU but technicially IF he would just kill you right after your initiation, baiting and ruleplay has to be discussed.

Reporting such a situation without having a video is in my opinion the hardest part as there is no way to prove the story and it would be most likely word against word.

If someone were to throw a invalidly throw a flashbang at me, would I then gain KOS rights on them? I've always just screamed angrily IC and ran away when someone invalidly throws a flashbang. I've never actually been able to properly ID someone who flashbanged me, but if I could then would I be able to retaliate?

I don't wanna hijack this thread, but I've been wondering this for a while myself and figured this was a good place to ask! :)

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Fact: Flashbangs can kill people.

So no matter of the scenario (getting chased, someone is standing infront of you and shittalks) if you throw a flashbang without having KoS rights and without a proper initiation -I quote out of the rules:

-You have to make contact with the target before initiating a hostile action against it. You must make your hostile intention clear and unambiguous and state each demand before you can harm the victim(s) for non-compliance-

it is a hostile action and therefore:

1. Invalid initiation

2. If the person does not die - attempted RDM or KoS (that depends if contact was made or not)

Nowhere do we say in the rules that you can kill someone because he is chasing you. We had this rule in the mod.

We simply cannot make more and more extra rules for different scenarios.

If someone is chasing you and you tell that person to stop and the person does not stop, baiting can be discussed.

If you kill a person because he is chasing you after you told him to stop, but that person does not stop and you have not initiated nor KoS rights on the person, then baiting for the guy and RDM for the shooter has to be discussed and has to be judged based of the evidence, from case to case as not every case is the same.

Have in mind, that as soon as you would initiate on the guy who follows you, HE gains KoS rights on YOU but technicially IF he would just kill you right after your initiation, baiting and ruleplay has to be discussed.

Reporting such a situation without having a video is in my opinion the hardest part as there is no way to prove the story and it would be most likely word against word.

If someone were to throw a invalidly throw a flashbang at me, would I then gain KOS rights on them? I've always just screamed angrily IC and ran away when someone invalidly throws a flashbang. I've never actually been able to properly ID someone who flashbanged me, but if I could then would I be able to retaliate?

I don't wanna hijack this thread, but I've been wondering this for a while myself and figured this was a good place to ask! :)

In my opinion yes - Same as someone would just punch you in the face without having KoS rights and without an intiation. The person comminted a hostile action against you - you gain KoS rights.

However, like I always use to say - Just because you have KoS rights, does not mean you need to use them. Roleplay should always be the first solution but it has not to be the last solution.

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Fact: Flashbangs can kill people.

So no matter of the scenario (getting chased, someone is standing infront of you and shittalks) if you throw a flashbang without having KoS rights and without a proper initiation -I quote out of the rules:

-You have to make contact with the target before initiating a hostile action against it. You must make your hostile intention clear and unambiguous and state each demand before you can harm the victim(s) for non-compliance-

it is a hostile action and therefore:

1. Invalid initiation

2. If the person does not die - attempted RDM or KoS (that depends if contact was made or not)

Nowhere do we say in the rules that you can kill someone because he is chasing you. We had this rule in the mod.

We simply cannot make more and more extra rules for different scenarios.

If someone is chasing you and you tell that person to stop and the person does not stop, baiting can be discussed.

If you kill a person because he is chasing you after you told him to stop, but that person does not stop and you have not initiated nor KoS rights on the person, then baiting for the guy and RDM for the shooter has to be discussed and has to be judged based of the evidence, from case to case as not every case is the same.

Have in mind, that as soon as you would initiate on the guy who follows you, HE gains KoS rights on YOU but technicially IF he would just kill you right after your initiation, baiting and ruleplay has to be discussed.

Reporting such a situation without having a video is in my opinion the hardest part as there is no way to prove the story and it would be most likely word against word.

If someone were to throw a invalidly throw a flashbang at me, would I then gain KOS rights on them? I've always just screamed angrily IC and ran away when someone invalidly throws a flashbang. I've never actually been able to properly ID someone who flashbanged me, but if I could then would I be able to retaliate?

I don't wanna hijack this thread, but I've been wondering this for a while myself and figured this was a good place to ask! :)

In my opinion yes - Same as someone would just punch you in the face without having KoS rights and without an intiation. The person comminted a hostile action against you - you gain KoS rights.

However, like I always use to say - Just because you have KoS rights, does not mean you need to use them. Roleplay should always be the first solution but it has not to be the last solution.

I completely 100% agree with your last line. Thanks so much for clearing this up!

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...We had this rule in the mod...

This is the part that I was referring to. I vaguely remember reading a report about it, most likely from the Mod days. I was just unaware that the rule no longer existed. Good to know.

As a follow up question, you have mentioned that if you have told someone to stop following you yet they continue, baiting can be considered, yet are you still avoiding role-play?

I'm also slightly confused by the 'avoiding role-play' part from the linked report. Just as the accused has done in the scenario, if 7 people see me and all run in my direction, my first instinct would be to run away. In what circumstances does it become avoiding role-play?

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...We had this rule in the mod...

This is the part that I was referring to. I vaguely remember reading a report about it, most likely from the Mod days. I was just unaware that the rule no longer existed. Good to know.

As a follow up question, you have mentioned that if you have told someone to stop following you yet they continue, baiting can be considered, yet are you still avoiding role-play?

I'm also slightly confused by the 'avoiding role-play' part from the linked report. Just as the accused has done in the scenario, if 7 people see me and all run in my direction, my first instinct would be to run away. In what circumstances does it become avoiding role-play?

If they try to communicate/roleplay with you and you run away constantly, it could be considered avoiding RP. However, it will depend on the scenario and it has to be decided case by case, as i have mentioned before.

But, have in mind, even if 10 people run after, you would never find out what they want. Yes, maybe they are hostile, maybe they are friendly and maybe they just need your help.

You never know if you are running away to avoid the possibility that they might want to rob you.

I say this, as this seems to be the most common argumention for avoiding roleplay - "I did not want to get robbed".

While it is shit to loose gear, by running away you would also maybe loose a great RP experience while being a hostage. Since 2013 a lot of things have changed on DayZRP and we are focusing on Roleplay. Being a hostage can be great roleplay if someone actually gives the RP a chance.

So, to sum it up - if someone tries to roleplay with you and you run away because you are scared of the possible RP - then it could be considered as "avoiding RP" - Why? Because you never know what those people want and you might miss a great roleplay-possibility.

63582d7ec3.png

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In my opinion I wouldn't consider it avoiding role-play.

You have engaged with your persurer and you have told him/her that you are not interested in talking or that you have somewhere to be and you do not wish to be followed. They continue to follow you despite you asking them not to follow you, you then give them the choice, stop following me or I will be forced to take action (In this instance you are forced to initiate in order to protect people) If you successfully initiate and have the person captured provide good RP and tell them to leave the area. If the initiation fails i.e. you are shot from behind, you were baited into initiating and therefore the person who you initiated on broke a rule and can be punished if evidence is provided.

Moving on to the topic of '7 people see me and all run in my direction'

If you see a group of this size and they see you. 9 x out of 10 you are more than likely going to get robbed. However just because a group of that size runs towards you doesn't mean that you are going to be robbed. From personal experience if you face the group and meet them with kindness you might just make it out of the situation with your gear. Remember getting robbed isn't the end of your character, it just gives you more of an insentive to make powerful alies and take the fight to these people. Also adding to this people can no longer execute you without a valid reason.

a3372b63e4.png

'Several Hositle Incidents' This means that this group would have to actively go out of their way to find you to gain execution rights. However this does not exempt you from being killed for disobeying orders as a hostage. You must still comply to all of your hostage makers demands no matter how humiliating. This then opens up more potential Role Play for your character.

Does this answer your questions?

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/snip

Thanks Terra. I feel as though I have a better understanding about it now.

I do have one last question if I may. With the Exile server now up and the rules potentially being updated to reflect vehicles and roadblocks, will avoiding a road block be considered avoiding role-play?

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/snip

Thanks Terra. I feel as though I have a better understanding about it now.

I do have one last question if I may. With the Exile server now up and the rules potentially being updated to reflect vehicles and roadblocks, will avoiding a road block be considered avoiding role-play?

No. If you see a roadblock you do not need to stop - you can turn around, drive around. If you want, you can drive into the roadblock to find out what it is about - A checkpoint for example. But you are not requiered to drive into the roadblock once you see it.

Normally, a roadblock is to see from a little bit away - No RP yet - Not avoiding anything.

Have in mind, if you drive around or near a roadblock and an initiation via text and voice would be dropped and you would drive away, it would be non compliance and they gain KoS rights on you and can shoot you.

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/snip

Great thanks Terra and everyone else. This can be /solved.

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Well with the aboved stated I will solve this. If you have any other questions please feel free to ask them.

/Solved

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