Is this metagaming?

[Post]

Hey, I'm here with my Johnny Denver impression.  I saw a report thread, and was kind of curious about it.  It hasn't been ruled yet, and understandably if staff wants to wait to give an answer I understand, but to me it feels like a huge violation and abuse of the game mechanics.  Metagaming comes in many forms, you can gather information from the forums, teamspeak, or simply checking a pulse.  

The video I'm referring to is:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjsIbQo3g3A

If someone hears someone else's voice, and knows its a member of a group, and they begin hitting tab, and reading off names and scoping how many players they have, isn't that a form of metagaming?  I mean look at it from this perspective.  If another group is heard, people press tab, realize they have many on, and decide against initiating on them because of it they're using an OOC means to develop their IC actions.  They aren't acting upon what they see IC, but what they know OOCly. 

It's not so much a problem that they knew it was the Irish, but they appear to be gauging the size of the squad by tab, and seeing when people (like Frank) log in.  Obviously it's hard to prove that someone does it unless in a video, but wouldn't this be considered a violation of metagaming?

[Oliv]

Just to play devils advocate here, but was the situation not already in progress? Even if (and I'm not saying it is) considered metagamming, the situation already being in progress, what could have possibly been done to change the scenario and their character choices?

What, were they going to come out guns blazing from the tower before but oh shit another guy logged in run and hide like this run on sentence oh my god when does it end?

[Storm]

Personally, I would only deem this metagaming if they used that information IC. Say I looked at the player menu and saw that group A has five people online, and I walked up to them and told them that I knew that they had one person hiding because I know they have five people, that would be metagaming.

I wouldnt class looking at the player list and seeing one of them log in as metagaming.

[Post]

They know to watch out, that backup is coming.

[Storm]

They know to watch out, that backup is coming.

Think of this from a real life perspective. If you were fighting one guy, and you knew he had friends about, wouldn't you always suspect some kind of backup. Take away the aspect of this being a server, wouldn't the person that logged in always be around ICly?

[Hellish]

As long as you aren't using the information you gain from this to your advantage its not meta-gaming.

[Thumper]

Hopefully when modding is allowed we can just remove it as an option. Its a needless thing.

[Oliv]

Hopefully when modding is allowed we can just remove it as an option. Its a needless thing.

agreed. All it does it get people with names like, oh I don't know, Enzo Ferraro, kicked from the server because it's close to the name of a famous person so some ones friend can join the same server as them.

Months later and I'm still pissed I had to change my name because of shit like this...

[Skeetsi]

Hopefully when modding is allowed we can just remove it as an option. Its a needless thing.

Desperately in need of this.

Then again sometimes it's useful. For example RP gets cut off by server crash, you'll see if and when the other party is possibly coming back. Or you'll spot a combatlogger easily. If it gets removed however there is always Gametracker which does update frequently.

But to sum it up I'd say the pros are lesser than the cons.

[Dew]

Yes I would say checking the player list to see how many members of that group are online is a form of metagaming, I believe so because knowing the amount of members they have online would play a role in the decisions you make around them with the information you acquired by checking the player list.

[Chow]

Post, do you feel like your question have been answered?

[Johnny]

I can't watch the video due to being at work but from what i can put together the situation goes like this. You are in a hostel situation, You hear someones voice that in the Irish, So you pull up the players list to check how many others are on. Now if i am holding a position/defending somewhere yes this is meta gaming seeing as knowing how many bad guys are outside does give me a IG advantage if used. 

Seems to fit the bill of meta gaming. But this is just one of those rule breaks that is almost impossible to catch unless someone posts a video of themselves doing it or admits to it. Just my 2 cents.

[Jamie]

If you saw a single group member on his own, you may check the playerlist to see if he has friends. People may used that to their advantage, but people would think ICly "It can't be just him on his own. He probably has friends somewhere." Of course if he saw 1 guy, checked the playerlist to see he had 3 friends then said IG "Where is your 3 other friends?" then this is blantant metagame. On the otherside of the coin, if you saw a lone group member, checked the playerlist to see if he had friends he has none, you decide to initiate. This would be metagame in my opinion, but it would be nearly impossible to prove only if you heard the initiator say in a video "Just checked the playerlist, he has no friends. Initiate on him." 

I think it's a slightly grey zone for me. I think the servers should honestly work like H1Z1. You don't see how many players are on a server and there isn't a playerlist function. Maybe something customization in the very far far future.

[Oliv]

Snip

That's not quite how it went down.

As far as I can tell, they were already in the situation with the Irish and trapped in the tower. They looked at the player list to see members of that group logging in.

Not sure if I got it all right, but thats how ive been looking at it.

[Jester]

Recognizing a voice in game and checking to see if that person is logged on as their character is legitimate in my eyes as people play alts and don't change their voices. Just because someone looks at the server list doesn't mean they are meta-gaming. But if they use the information to gain an advantage or otherwise use it to completely change their characters actions I do believe that would be meta gaming. Its all about the intent of the person in question.

In the instance of checking the player list at an initiation. I normally screenshot and check for the known targets involved for the sake of a possible report. But do not use that information to give myself an advantage IC.

As for the report that is up to the admins and GameMasters to decide.

Just for the record this is my personal opinion.

[Jezza27]

We never used this information ICly, nor did we use it to our advantage, so I believe not. The server list is apart of the game and can't be removed, so the only way I see it being against the rules is if you use the knowledge from it decide how you act in game.

[Guest]

I guess it's kind of one of those things, like turning up gamma to improve your vision in the night sort of ordeal. Everybody does it, and you can't really prove it half the time. As annoying as it may be.

[Thumper]

No, everyone doesnt do it. Using the player list is and will always be metagaming. Just looking at gives you information you would not readily have IC, even if you dont use it. I never, ever even hit the 'P' cause it doesnt matter who is on, or logs off. If you suspect combat log, report it. Thats what logs are for.

[Guest]

No, everyone doesnt do it.

C'mon Thumper. I know I have no evidence to bring forward, but i'm sure alot of people do. Either way, i'll stop going on about that, as it's not about who does it. Sorry op

[Jamie]

Thumper cleared this up very well and very simply. This is a form of metagaming when looking at the playerlist and using it to your IC advantage. 

Hopefully they can alter how the playerlist works in the future. 

Since your question has been answered Post, I'm going to mark this as /solved but feel free to carry on discussing.

[Post]

You can mark it solved, but in the end I feel there's still something wrong with it. I guess my issue with it is that people are acting so pure and innocent, and even saying, "Yeah, I look at it, and make note." Some even claiming to screenshot it, but then act as if that information isn't consciously or perhaps subconsciously being passed along and used it kind of a joke. It's cognitive, if you know Aiden Murphy logs in, you know there's backup, and already you are developing your movements, behavior, and actions based around that information. You can make it solved, but for me personally I feel that someone's gut instinct in roleplay upon hearing an initiation and fight shouldn't be to press tab, and start looking at names. You're saying it's only metagame if he brought that information IC, but it's not. It's metagame to even learn information that then dictates behavior and actions conducted IC. You're going to know in the back of your mind there's more, even how many, and you are going to use that information. Passively maybe by saying something hinting like, "He likely has friends." But it's still going to be used, it's learned, and not forgotten because you choose to, you can not just simply forget something that easily.

[Jester]

You can mark it solved, but in the end I feel there's still something wrong with it.  I guess my issue with it is that people are acting so pure and innocent, and even saying, "Yeah, I look at it, and make note."  Some even claiming to screenshot it, but then act as if that information isn't consciously or perhaps subconsciously being passed along and used it kind of a joke.  It's cognitive, if you know Aiden Murphy logs in, you know there's backup, and already you are developing your movements, behavior, and actions based around that information.  You can make it solved, but for me personally I feel that someone's gut instinct in roleplay upon hearing an initiation and fight shouldn't be to press tab, and start looking at names.  You're saying it's only metagame if he brought that information IC, but it's not.  It's metagame to even learn information that then dictates behavior and actions conducted IC.  You're going to know in the back of your mind there's more, even how many, and you are going to use that information.  Passively maybe by saying something hinting like, "He likely has friends."  But it's still going to be used, it's learned, and not forgotten because you choose to, you can not just simply forget something that easily.

I agree people do subconscious gather information but that doesn't mean they actively use it.   As for active information recognition that is a whole different senario.   But I understand the frustration.