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Allow switching servers when people have KOS on you.

Should switching servers if people who have kos on you are offline be allowed?  

144 members have voted

  1. 1. Should switching servers if people who have kos on you are offline be allowed?



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Except we can't prove the motive in any way and... (*gasp*) people lie on the Internet. Therefore a rule that holds you accountable at all times, regardless of the situation, people being online or offline is the most fair one and it doesn't leave any room for abusing it by having "motives". Also, 15 minutes isn't really that long, I personally would like to extend that to 30 minutes, to limit the amount of "robbery - hide - log out" scenarios.

People lie on the internet, yes. And unless there's video evidence, screenshots or some other way of evidence more substantial than the other side presents, staff usually rules "Word vs Word". I don't see any in this case.

A combat logging rule that holds you accountable at all times currently doesn't exist. The current rule certainly does not hold anyone accountable at all times. I'll quote it:

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As it's evident by reading, there's no vagueness about what constitutes combat logging. It also clearly states:

Break line of sight with those you committed a hostile act against and wait a minimum of 15 minutes from the time you broke line of sight before logging out.

If logging onto another server is part of what you would consider a breach of this rule, there's not even room for interpretation within the text that allows people to concur with your particular interpretation. If anything, the room for interpretation tells us that logging onto another server requires logging off, and logging off requires waiting the minimum of 15 minutes. Thus, it's allowed to switch. That's it.

When I said "as long as the motive is a valid one" I meant that, if the accused party blatantly admits that they went to log off at the 15 minutes mark for entirely unacceptable motives then punish them, because they're obviously asking for it. This is because I have seen reports where one of the parties blatantly admits to using text RP solely to avoid giving away their position at initiation and getting away with this deplorable behavior scot-free. But I do agree that self-incrimination barely, if ever, happens.

I agree with this particular rule's timer being too lenient and I would change it myself to 30 minutes as well, but that was not what was being discussed at all. Still, it is food for thought if you want to move those gears and make the change *nudge nudge, wink wink*.


PS: Re-reading your text, I think we're talking about different things here. I'm under the impression that what you are arguing in favor of 15 minutes being an absolute minimum.

15 minutes being an absolute minimum is something NO ONE contests in this thread. The thread was started because a recent ruling has brought a pseudo-rule that you cannot use that 15 minute mark to log off lawfully and then relog on another server: you have to keep playing on the same server or log off and wait the full 2 hs before logging on another server.

Now, I was discussing that ban, dispensed at a person AFTER the minimum 15 minute mark, because he used the 15 minutes to switch instead of logging off (wich is not explicitly said by the rules and, IMHO, neither implicitly). I just read an appeal that overturned this ruling, but that's besides the point because it was overturned on the details and it didn't address the main issue. But, yeah, that's the gist of it: I agree and most of the community as well that the 15 minute mark is absolute.

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Realistically speak how would you know? There isnt a player list in life....if you log in and get into shit, stay on the server as long as you are going to play. If your buddies cant join you, they can when the server has room.

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Except we can't prove the motive in any way and... (*gasp*) people lie on the Internet. Therefore a rule that holds you accountable at all times, regardless of the situation, people being online or offline is the most fair one and it doesn't leave any room for abusing it by having "motives". Also, 15 minutes isn't really that long, I personally would like to extend that to 30 minutes, to limit the amount of "robbery - hide - log out" scenarios.

The 15 minute rule is not the issue though.  I am saying you can not switch after the 15 minutes or you are "avoiding kos" even if the other party is offline.

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-SNIP-

My question was answered in the OP.

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I voted no because personally, I think this is going to open up more problems and it's never been something to effect me.

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I voted no because personally, I think this is going to open up more problems and it's never been something to effect me.

What would those problems be.

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I voted no because personally, I think this is going to open up more problems and it's never been something to effect me.

What would those problems be.

1. those who metagame a low player population via the player list to determine the likelyhood of someone having friends on the server. Once thats determined, they can use that to decide if they want to rob some one or not that they may not have done so before. If the victim logs off for whatever reason, this rule would leave the offender the ability to take advantage of that and switch servers. It's probably not likely to happen as it requires alot of variables to fall into place, but still it's sneaky shit that I don't like.

2. I didn't see it mentioned, may have missed it, but would the KOS rights transfer if you would both switch servers? If I get bent out of shape after you rob me on a low pop server and switch to another to be with my friends, I don't want some one saying I committed an offence because I shot them after 1.5 hours on another server.

Personally, I just see more problems arising with a rule like this vs just asking the guy if you can switch servers.

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I voted no because personally, I think this is going to open up more problems and it's never been something to effect me.

What would those problems be.

1. those who metagame a low player population via the player list to determine the likelyhood of someone having friends on the server. Once thats determined, they can use that to decide if they want to rob some one or not that they may not have done so before. If the victim logs off for whatever reason, this rule would leave the offender the ability to take advantage of that and switch servers. It's probably not likely to happen as it requires alot of variables to fall into place, but still it's sneaky shit that I don't like.

2. I didn't see it mentioned, may have missed it, but would the KOS rights transfer if you would both switch servers? If I get bent out of shape after you rob me on a low pop server and switch to another to be with my friends, I don't want some one saying I committed an offence because I shot them after 1.5 hours on another server.

Personally, I just see more problems arising with a rule like this vs just asking the guy if you can switch servers.

You did not read my original question correctly then.  I am saying the rule should be removed, not placed.

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I'm curious as to how you know someone with KOS rights on you has logged off without meta-gaming?

I understand why some people would want this rule, but this rule in my opinion would mean a direct contradiction to the meta-gaming rule. Rule contradictions are never a good idea.

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I'm curious as to how you know someone with KOS rights on you has logged off without meta-gaming?

I understand why some people would want this rule, but this rule in my opinion would mean a direct contradiction to the meta-gaming rule. Rule contradictions are never a good idea.

Well duh.  It really doesn't conteadict at all though.

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What would those problems be.

1. those who metagame a low player population via the player list to determine the likelyhood of someone having friends on the server. Once thats determined, they can use that to decide if they want to rob some one or not that they may not have done so before. If the victim logs off for whatever reason, this rule would leave the offender the ability to take advantage of that and switch servers. It's probably not likely to happen as it requires alot of variables to fall into place, but still it's sneaky shit that I don't like.

2. I didn't see it mentioned, may have missed it, but would the KOS rights transfer if you would both switch servers? If I get bent out of shape after you rob me on a low pop server and switch to another to be with my friends, I don't want some one saying I committed an offence because I shot them after 1.5 hours on another server.

Personally, I just see more problems arising with a rule like this vs just asking the guy if you can switch servers.

You did not read my original question correctly then.  I am saying the rule should be removed, not placed.

I think I read it correctly... I feel that removing the rule that forces you to stay on the server for 2 hours after is going to lead to more issues.

Like I said though, this doesn't have an effect on me as I don't rob or initiate on people much at all, so this does little for me. When I do and I have to go, I just ask for permission OOC.

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Well duh.  It really doesn't conteadict at all though.

Well duh what?

And can you explain to me why you think it does not contradict then? Just saying "Nah doesn't conteadict" isn't a very well reasoned argument, spelling included.

To know someone has logged off in-game requires checking either the player list or team-speak to see if someone has logged off. Both of which is meta-gaming. The only way this rule can exist is if we allow people to meta-game this information.

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Well duh.  It really doesn't conteadict at all though.

Well duh what?

And can you explain to me why you think it does not contradict then? Just saying "Nah doesn't conteadict" isn't a very well reasoned argument, spelling included.

To know someone has logged off in-game requires checking either the player list or team-speak to see if someone has logged off. Both of which is meta-gaming. The only way this rule can exist is if we allow people to meta-game this information.

I was on my phone, chill grammar lord.  I am saying that you would have to look at the player list to know.  That is obvious.  However I do not believe it is rule breaking metagaming as people tend to do this type of metagaming all the time, like it or not.  For example we are hunting down someone that shot our guy.  After 15 minutes of searching we discover he is no longer on the player list so we call off the search.  Thing is I am not going to waste my time searching for an imaginary person, that's just fucking stupid.  Unfortunately people have lives and their characters don't roam around Chernarus 24/7, thus we can make exceptions.


-snip-

You did not read my original question correctly then.  I am saying the rule should be removed, not placed.

I think I read it correctly... I feel that removing the rule that forces you to stay on the server for 2 hours after is going to lead to more issues.

Like I said though, this doesn't have an effect on me as I don't rob or initiate on people much at all, so this does little for me. When I do and I have to go, I just ask for permission OOC.

Ok I think I just read your response wrong.

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This is truly a very, very silly rule. Chances are, if you've gotten away within 15 minutes, they likely aren't going to find you. That being said, I can understand how people might switch servers after the fifteen minute period is up.

On the flipside, way back when the Trust was starting up but wasn't quite an official group, entire bandit groups would join the unpopulated server we were on just to find us. I see that both sides can abuse servers.

Anyhow, more to the point, why not edit the rule like this: you can only leave/switch servers after 30 minutes have passed.

I think the that would be an interesting addendum to the rule. You have to wait 15 minutes to log, and 30 minutes to switch servers.

I don't think switching the current 15 minute rule to 30 minutes would be that great, feels like it would be force people to be on longer than is necessary.

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I guess the community is pretty much split in half about this, I think that it would a be a rule contradiction aswell, so we can't really get past that.

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"...metagaming as people tend to do this type of metagaming all the time..."

Just because people do it all of the time, does not mean it is okay to do. Yes, people use the player list to see if someone they are hunting has logged off. In my opinion this is still meta-gaming however people do not get punished for this as the Admin team turns a blind eye to it due to no harm no foul.

If the Admin team allows the rule you propose, they are effectively stating that meta-gaming that someone has logged off using either the player list or Teamspeak is allowed, as that is the only way the rule can exist. Thus the Admin team would have to make an official standpoint on whether we can or can not meta-game information in certain situations.

There are other issues I foresee with this rule.

If I am robbed and am thus granted KOS rights, I can choose to log off and have a quick break and continue playing (say 10 minutes later). As far as I know, the 2 hour KOS rights still exist even If I log off for while (if I am incorrect Admin team, please let me know). Your rule would mean that those people I still have KOS rights have left the server and have avoided my ability for revenge.

The question here is whether or not my KOS rights transfer over to another server. If they do, then again no harm no foul, however this again requires the Admin team to make an official standpoint on whether KOS rights transfer to other servers.

Lastly, you don't always know who has KOS rights on you. It is commonplace to rob someone and not realise they have friends nearby who are granted KOS rights. Allowing this rule could mean that people unintentionally break the rules.

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"...metagaming as people tend to do this type of metagaming all the time..."

Just because people do it all of the time, does not mean it is okay to do. Yes, people use the player list to see if someone they are hunting has logged off. In my opinion this is still meta-gaming however people do not get punished for this as the Admin team turns a blind eye to it due to no harm no foul.

If the Admin team allows the rule you propose, they are effectively stating that meta-gaming that someone has logged off using either the player list or Teamspeak is allowed, as that is the only way the rule can exist. Thus the Admin team would have to make an official standpoint on whether we can or can not meta-game information in certain situations.

There are other issues I foresee with this rule.

If I am robbed and am thus granted KOS rights, I can choose to log off and have a quick break and continue playing (say 10 minutes later). As far as I know, the 2 hour KOS rights still exist even If I log off for while (if I am incorrect Admin team, please let me know). Your rule would mean that those people I still have KOS rights have left the server and have avoided my ability for revenge.

The question here is whether or not my KOS rights transfer over to another server. If they do, then again no harm no foul, however this again requires the Admin team to make an official standpoint on whether KOS rights transfer to other servers.

Lastly, you don't always know who has KOS rights on you. It is commonplace to rob someone and not realise they have friends nearby who are granted KOS rights. Allowing this rule could mean that people unintentionally break the rules.

As far as I know KOS rights due transfer between servers.  However I still find it bullshit I have to sit int he same dead fucking server for 2 hours even if the other party is offline.  As I said before I can't ask a person ooc permission to switch if they are offline.

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As far as I know KOS rights due transfer between servers.  However I still find it bullshit I have to sit int he same dead fucking server for 2 hours even if the other party is offline.  As I said before I can't ask a person ooc permission to switch if they are offline.

I'm reasonably sure KOS rights do not transfer between servers. Not because there is a rule or because someone from the Admin team has said they do, but because there is no reason at the moment for KOS rights to transfer between the servers. Your proposed rule however would generate a reason.

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As far as I know KOS rights due transfer between servers.  However I still find it bullshit I have to sit int he same dead fucking server for 2 hours even if the other party is offline.  As I said before I can't ask a person ooc permission to switch if they are offline.

I'm reasonably sure KOS rights do not transfer between servers. Not because there is a rule or because someone from the Admin team has said they do, but because there is no reason at the moment for KOS rights to transfer between the servers. Your proposed rule however would generate a reason.

Pretty much

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This gets a no from me. If somebody logs out, they lose all KoS rights anyway, so there is no reason you couldn't switch servers if they logged out.

If they don't log out for the two hours, you shouldn't be able to switch servers. You know what you are getting into when you rob somebody and give them KoS rights, you are able to log after 15 if you need to go, but you know that you are committing to one server for 2 hours.

If you cannot make that commitment, better to not rob somebody, or possibly switch servers before you decide to rob somebody.

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This gets a no from me.  If somebody logs out, they lose all KoS rights anyway, so there is no reason you couldn't switch servers if they logged out.  

I'm confused by this statement. You say you voted no, but then make a statement in support of the rule suggestion.

Edit: Also double checked in the questions thread and you do not lose KOS rights when you log out as seen here

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Someone might of said this already, but I believe the answer is a No in my opinion. This is because people should not be hopping servers in the first place. After they've conducted the hostile act, they must stay on for at least 15 minutes. The 15 minute rule is really for emergencies and such, so if they logged and switched server after the 15 minutes, they'd be breaking a rule in my opinion.  Switching server is just a feeble attempt to hide from someone, and I'd think this is report-able. And I think it may be awkward in terms of rp.

For example, a firefight took place at Green Mountain, some people escaped and you have KOS rights on them. Everyone switches servers and meets with people that have been sitting at Green Mountain for the past couple of hours and never witnessed the fight. It should just remain in the server it took place to prevent little things like that happening.

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This gets a no from me.  If somebody logs out, they lose all KoS rights anyway, so there is no reason you couldn't switch servers if they logged out.  

I'm confused by this statement. You say you voted no, but then make a statement in support of the rule suggestion.

Edit: Also double checked in the questions thread and you do not lose KOS rights when you log out as seen here

Ah, I was under the impression that logging out caused you to lose all KoS rights, as this is what I heard GM's say in my time here.  The staff opinion on this must have changed.  

To clarify, I was voting no on some rule change or addition about a separate timer for server switching, I was voting no because I thought it wasn't needed, due to the misconception that people lost KoS rights when logging off.  I only voted no because I was under that impression.

I do think people should lose KoS rights when they log.  It isn't at all fair for somebody to log out and then 1.5 hours later log back in for revenge or whatever, this could cause them to gain an advantage, and really isn't fair to the aggressor in this situation.

I think it is smarter to just get on the server you want to play on, instead of hopping on a low pop for an "easy robbery" and then hopping on a high pop to "actually RP".

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I think it is smarter to just get on the server you want to play on, instead of hopping on a low pop for an "easy robbery" and then hopping on a high pop to "actually RP".

You do realize people stay on servers for long periods of time while they are high populated then they become low populated?  Ex: I rob someone on S1 while 43 people are in the server.  1.5 hours later the number is now at 12 players and I still am not allowed to switch to the server with 47 people in it.  Even if the person who can kill me is offline.  All of your statements are very confusing too.  You state "You know what you are getting into when you rob somebody and give them KoS rights," this is pretty fucking lame in my opinion.  How am I supposed to predict the server will be dead as fuck 1.5 hours later?  I say this because this is exactly what happened.  You also imply robbery as well.  Someone can give KOS rights simply by initiating on someone.  There doesn't have to be a robbery.  Like if you were to initiate on someone and it turns out to be a misunderstanding and you let them go, also known as a "Whoops initiation".  They still have KOS on you even if you didn't do jack shit to them.  Thing is I would rather got to a server with actual RP, not one with like 3 people in it.

What I am getting at is everything you say implies we can predict the future.

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As far as I know KOS rights due transfer between servers.  However I still find it bullshit I have to sit int he same dead fucking server for 2 hours even if the other party is offline.  As I said before I can't ask a person ooc permission to switch if they are offline.

I'm reasonably sure KOS rights do not transfer between servers. Not because there is a rule or because someone from the Admin team has said they do, but because there is no reason at the moment for KOS rights to transfer between the servers. Your proposed rule however would generate a reason.

KOS rights are on the person, whatever server is irrelevant. Person + time limit = All that matters.

You say there's no reason they should transfer. I say the opposite, there's no reason they wouldn't.

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