Revamping the combat rules towards a fair middle ground solution.

[Grihm 16]

What worked in the mod does not work now, clearly.

It´s an unreasonable amount of hostility going on and with no possible way to stop it for people caught in the middle. You have people initiating on a daily bases if not even hourly even. It´s too much.

How it should be.

Group A initiate on group B and at night, group A talks about if it´s worth fighting back. The decide to risk it to put and end to it for the sake of having their farms being left alone and the medicinal stack saved. They contact some friends on the radio for backup, and during the first morning rays they go out and hit Group A and ends the threat.

How it is.

Group A wiggles around in a bandit dance around Group B to fish for any reason to draw blood. As soon as they get any reason at all, it´s initiate and rob/kill. Afterwards, Group A is on edge and uses any approach by Group B as a hostile action taken upon them, so everything done is in ”Defense”. Group B cannot do anything but a weird ” no reason to bother ” RP attempt to make Group A stop. Everything else is seen as hostility and Group B will end up dead..again.

The system we have today is in favor of the hostile group. You give the victim 15 min to retaliate in short, because that´s the limit for some reason until the actor of the hostile action can safely log out. 15 min! The " 2 hour is sufficient " rule is nulled by the 15 min log out timer.

The new rules should be in favor of getting a middle ground so people can take action against their aggressors. Groups and individuals should not be immortal and kept safe by the big loop hole that they can just keep on going without dying, no matter what they do. Let the victims have the right to go after their attackers and fight back.

You don´t want to risk ending up dead permanently? Then don´t attack and act hostile against anything that comes into your field of view.

[Wendsill 0]

I'm pretty sure your explanation of certain rules has been bent so that it fits your argument better. And I also know pretty sure that you know as well, that your claim on how things work is not how things work.

Now, you claim alot of things. Where are your claims based on? Further more if you want to RP as a farmer and live your life cutting pumpkin seeds, that's your choise, on the other hand we have people who find your playstyle boring.

You cannot force your playstyle on them, nor they can force theirs on your.

And again you come with your permadeath suggestion, no is not going to happen. Not now, not ever.

[Thumper 0]

Actually  that is not how the 15 minute timer is supposed to work. Lets say you initiate and kill someone. His friend have KOS and the 2 hours revenge timer starts. After 15 minutes pass, if you do not HAVE to log out for personal reasons you are supposed to keep playing, and in my experience  most do. 

I think that a better option to a rule change is to do away with the 15 minutes combat log timer and add it to the 2 hour revenge timer. If you hunting someone, logs will show what time they logged and the staff can decide if sufficient time has passed for you to have 'escaped.

[Roland 5229]

Ok, so you described the problem, but do you have any specific suggestions how to change the current rules or is this just a rant?

[Husky 0]

No, no and no.

This would be ridiculous, it would become a deathmatch server if everyone had KoS rights on each other for long periods, 2 hours is more than enough time and yes, 15 mins is not a lot of time but it would be unfair to force someone to be on longer in my opinion.

I'm fine with the current system but if this was added we would have not only a lot of miss ID's but people would be less encouraged to go in public spaces.

- 1 from me.

[Surviving Man 93]

Considering the aggressors have to state their initiation and demand clearly and not having any sort of Kill rights until the targets choose to not comply, they're sticking their heads out a fair bit.

If group A initiates on group B, group B can have a sniper in a bush on overwatch ready to dome any aggressors and then and only then would group A have to do anything about it.

Yes, there's garbage RP that looks for any excuse to initiate (For example, the classic - insult target until target spits back and then initiate for 'giving them attitude') - But the true solution would be to improve and punish this sort of RP whenever it is found. Not create a series of arbitrary rules that give the victims more power over their aggressors. Look at how the 'Care for Hostage' rule makes a lot of captives suddenly have balls of steel and superhuman tolerances of pain because they are drunk with power*.

*Somewhat alarmist wording.

[Grihm 16]

Ok, so you described the problem, but do you have any specific suggestions how to change the current rules or is this just a rant?

Its not a rant and it´s in there as well. You need only to remove the 15 min / 2 hour timer to start with to make sure people can get their justice. How often does not people log off because they have dinner, mom called, school, work, friend came over etc and so on? It´s a bit convenient IMO. When this "timer" has expired, it´s up to the victim to re-initiate, and that makes them the hostile actor instead and then everything is upside down.

Let victims take their revenge as freely as an aggressor can freely choose when to initiate.

---

Actually  that is not how the 15 minute timer is supposed to work. Lets say you initiate and kill someone. His friend have KOS and the 2 hours revenge timer starts. After 15 minutes pass, if you do not HAVE to log out for personal reasons you are supposed to keep playing, and in my experience  most do. 

I think that a better option to a rule change is to do away with the 15 minutes combat log timer and add it to the 2 hour revenge timer. If you hunting someone, logs will show what time they logged and the staff can decide if sufficient time has passed for you to have 'escaped.

It´s supposed to work that way yes, but it does not. Mom called, wife/husband called...work called...dinner..school..taxi etc is always in the was as an excuse. If you have the time to initiate you should have the time to stick around for the fallout as well.

Adding the 15 min to the 2 hour revenge timer would be a good step to begin with. Good one!

[Guest Yuri Ubiytsa]

Ok, so you described the problem, but do you have any specific suggestions how to change the current rules or is this just a rant?

Its not a rant and it´s in there as well. You need only to remove the 15 min / 2 hour timer to start with to make sure people can get their justice. How often does not people log off because they have dinner, mom called, school, work, friend came over etc and so on? It´s a bit convenient IMO. When this "timer" has expired, it´s up to the victim to re-initiate, and that makes them the hostile actor instead and then everything is upside down.

Let victims take their revenge as freely as an aggressor can freely choose when to initiate.

---

Actually  that is not how the 15 minute timer is supposed to work. Lets say you initiate and kill someone. His friend have KOS and the 2 hours revenge timer starts. After 15 minutes pass, if you do not HAVE to log out for personal reasons you are supposed to keep playing, and in my experience  most do. 

I think that a better option to a rule change is to do away with the 15 minutes combat log timer and add it to the 2 hour revenge timer. If you hunting someone, logs will show what time they logged and the staff can decide if sufficient time has passed for you to have 'escaped.

It´s supposed to work that way yes, but it does not. Mom called, wife/husband called...work called...dinner..school..taxi etc is always in the was as an excuse. If you have the time to initiate you should have the time to stick around for the fallout as well.

Adding the 15 min to the 2 hour revenge timer would be a good step to begin with. Good one!

Real-life takes priority over gaming

If an IRL issue arises and he/she has to log then let he/she log

Just saying

[Grihm 16]

Real-life takes priority over gaming

If an IRL issue arises and he/she has to log then let he/she log

Just saying

So just impeccable timing then i assume?

RL comes first indeed, but it´s a fairly uses excuse as well here and there is what i am saying.

[DarkSide 245]

So you want to remove the 15 minute log out period and the 2 hour KOS timer? Am I hearing this correctly?

So when someone iniates on you and they kill just YOU and you have friends around the guy can just log and get away with murdering you?

[Grihm 16]

So you want to remove the 15 minute log out period and the 2 hour KOS timer? Am I hearing this correctly?

So when someone iniates on you and they kill just YOU and you have friends around the guy can just log and get away with murdering you?

No. You add to it, not retract. You "murder" someone you need to stay on and give the victims friends a chance of hunting you down. The 15 min you need to stay online now is ridiculously low. Also, it makes people kill and shoot each other just as anything else in the game, and act like it´s "just a game". You want to murder or shoot someone dead, then you need to man up and stick around for the consequences as well, and not just hide by logging off.

It´s all cool to be the ballsy bad ass, but when it´s time for the victims to retaliate, it´s tail between the legs and logout time. Funny that being opposed to this problem is seen as ranting! Loosing faith more and more each day.

[DarkSide 245]

So you want to remove the 15 minute log out period and the 2 hour KOS timer? Am I hearing this correctly?

So when someone iniates on you and they kill just YOU and you have friends around the guy can just log and get away with murdering you?

No. You add to it, not retract. You "murder" someone you need to stay on and give the victims friends a chance of hunting you down. The 15 min you need to stay online now is ridiculously low. Also, it makes people kill and shoot each other just as anything else in the game, and act like it´s "just a game". You want to murder or shoot someone dead, then you need to man up and stick around for the consequences as well, and not just hide by logging off.

It´s all cool to be the ballsy bad ass, but when it´s time for the victims to retaliate, it´s tail between the legs and logout time. Funny that being opposed to this problem is seen as ranting! Loosing faith more and more each day.

Ah I see what you are going at. I would like to see the 15 minute log out period to at least 30. But that's my opinion, BUT the thing is you NEVER travel alone in RP you have friends in the area ready to shoot the "robber" or you just need to have better tracking skills if they get away.

+1 on this Grihm

[Grihm 16]

Ah I see what you are going at. I would like to see the 15 minute log out period to at least 30. But that's my opinion, BUT the thing is you NEVER travel alone in RP you have friends in the area ready to shoot the "robber" or you just need to have better tracking skills if they get away.

+1 on this Grihm

Yes even a 30 min log out timer would do a lot in terms of change. Safety in number is indeed a good thing, but since we are open to new players and people new to RP as well, it must cater to all. Some are not comfortable in running with strangers their first few days or weeks, so in short..the system we have now is miss used, so it needs a serious fix and be evened out. Whenever a system grows old or outdated, it´s always less hassle to just stick to it as we always done, but for us to advance, changes are going to be needed.

Thumbs up on just upping it even to 30 bud! Tnx for the suggestion.

[Oliv 2590]

I'm 30 years old. I have real priorities that take precedent over any game. If I have to log off before the 15 minute timer is done, I would have no problem doing so, telling who ever it is that has a problem with it to fuck off, and take my licks from the admins like a man, because I know I just did something against the rules. I'm not saying thats how everyone should see it, but I would gladly write back in my POV on the report that this is what I did and yes, penalize me for it.

Now, that being said, I don't rob people. Robing people for a jacket or a can of peaches isn't what I'm here for. If thats your (a general your, for everyone reading this) bag, then have fun with it. I'm here for an RP experience that goes beyond baiting some one into initiating on me or robing some one traveling alone. I've worked to have my character have a reputation that he can be trusted and is good company to have around for a reason.

Do I think there needs to be some revamping? Sure. Do I think this is what needs to be revamped? No. Plain and simple, no.

I think we need to move away from the reporting as much as possible. Sort things out on teamspeak first if you can, help people realize that what they did wasn't good RP in order to better everyone on the server. If that doesn't work, then report.

People should be learning from reports, but not how to circumvent the rules. Yes, I did my due diligence in caring for this hostage. Yes, I initiated via text and voice every so many minutes. Blah blah blah. That does not lead to better RP, that leads to people toting the line and following the rules to a T in order to avoid punishment but perhaps still be a dick.

It doesnt mean we should all sing songs around the camp fire and hold hands, but focus on some next level shit instead. Develop a back story with another group over months, then take their ass to war for a month and a half instead of just picking on people in that group here and there. Surround an opposing group member or two with your large team, mind fuck them, then let them go. All weapons and gear intact. Do you know how much of a mind fuck it would be for me to be taken "captive" by some one to literally have nothing happen but a conversation when I could have been annihilated? To perhaps deliver a message back to the others that this opposing group has this much confidence they let me go whole?

I dunno, maybe it's just me, maybe it's my current mood. Either way, I've given you something interesting to read hopefully. Hope you enjoyed my rant.

[Bruce 0]

On this rare occasion I'm going to agree with you here, but only on the 15 minute timer. Needs to be at least 30, nothing is more annoying then when you are tracking someone and they log.

[Rory 2082]

I'm pretty sure your explanation of certain rules has been bent so that it fits your argument better. And I also know pretty sure that you know as well, that your claim on how things work is not how things work.

Now, you claim alot of things. Where are your claims based on? Further more if you want to RP as a farmer and live your life cutting pumpkin seeds, that's your choise, on the other hand we have people who find your playstyle boring.

You cannot force your playstyle on them, nor they can force theirs on your.

And again you come with your permadeath suggestion, no is not going to happen. Not now, not ever.

I agree with this statement, no further details have to be added here. 

Some people may find it boring. Some people live for the thrill, and usually only initiate on their hostile groups, not every group they come across. Correct me If I'm wrong

I don't see why we need a new rule, it would just be plain boring in my opinion. 

Don't fix something that isn't broken.

[Fackmos 44]

//Conor: Snipped

[Grihm 16]

On this rare occasion I'm going to agree with you here, but only on the 15 minute timer. Needs to be at least 30, nothing is more annoying then when you are tracking someone and they log.

I can understand that, and it should not be as such. Very uneven as well to give anyone the option to plan an attack indefinitely, but you yourself are given 15 min to retaliate, from basically standing around in nothing. Since people do not fear anything, the LEAST you can do is to up the limit on how long they need to be online after their initiation. Also, the actual need for an initiation should exist as well part from people just being bored.

---

I'm pretty sure your explanation of certain rules has been bent so that it fits your argument better. And I also know pretty sure that you know as well, that your claim on how things work is not how things work.

Now, you claim alot of things. Where are your claims based on? Further more if you want to RP as a farmer and live your life cutting pumpkin seeds, that's your choise, on the other hand we have people who find your playstyle boring.

You cannot force your playstyle on them, nor they can force theirs on your.

And again you come with your permadeath suggestion, no is not going to happen. Not now, not ever.

You don´t know, but you assume, and assume away if you wish, but it changes nothing. My claims is in how thing have progressed since the start of SA. I am not the first one talking about the issues in the situation that is at present. Pretending it all to be all superb is really confusing since it´s clearly not.

You cannot force your playstyle on them, nor they can force theirs on your.

So the fact that some people are immortal and yet end up getting shot daily but never die is not a one-sided benefit then in your opinion? You are getting forced by the fact that you cannot make them stop "until" they choose to. It´s always the same. When the bullet bites back and it backfires, the " fun " suddenly stops.

[Hellish 0]

+1 for a 30 min logout timer, -1 for all else.

[DonLedon 3]

So the fact that some people are immortal and yet end up getting shot daily but never die is not a one-sided benefit then in your opinion? You are getting forced by the fact that you cannot make them stop "until" they choose to. It´s always the same. When the bullet bites back and it backfires, the " fun " suddenly stops.

Well, I am 100% against forcing perma-death on anyone, but Grihm has a point here. There should be some limitations to ones play style. Alright, you could get shot few times in a row and survive, but to see a man get killed in front of your eyes 10+ times (and that is only how often you've seen it) and he always gets better and saved by some miracle is bs if you ask me. I'm not saying we should all go out and play peaceful farmers now, but people should have more value for their lifes, NVFL rule is ok, but just ok, it doesn't stop this things from happening.

Now, not to make it just a rant, I've seen, in my personal experience, a man that has been killed about six times on GM, I know of it because he said that he had "blackouts" after going to GM. 

Its ok, but admins should control this kind of behaviour. Add a rule that you are permitted to die *xx* amount of times per week/month/year; add a rule that you are not allowed to die more than *x* per day, and similar rules in that manner. Of course we should also make exceptions on deaths by hackers/glitching through the map or floor/bugs like the 'death room' etc.

[Grihm 16]

So the fact that some people are immortal and yet end up getting shot daily but never die is not a one-sided benefit then in your opinion? You are getting forced by the fact that you cannot make them stop "until" they choose to. It´s always the same. When the bullet bites back and it backfires, the " fun " suddenly stops.

Well, I am 100% against forcing perma-death on anyone, but Grihm has a point here. There should be some limitations to ones play style. Alright, you could get shot few times in a row and survive, but to see a man get killed in front of your eyes 10+ times (and that is only how often you've seen it) and he always gets better and saved by some miracle is bs if you ask me. I'm not saying we should all go out and play peaceful farmers now, but people should have more value for their lifes, NVFL rule is ok, but just ok, it doesn't stop this things from happening.

Now, not to make it just a rant, I've seen, in my personal experience, a man that has been killed about six times on GM, I know of it because he said that he had "blackouts" after going to GM. 

Its ok, but admins should control this kind of behaviour. Add a rule that you are permitted to die *xx* amount of times per week/month/year; add a rule that you are not allowed to die more than *x* per day, and similar rules in that manner. Of course we should also make exceptions on deaths by hackers/glitching through the map or flor/bugs like the 'death room' etc.

Thank you for this example. At some point, enough is enough. I can take it that someone survived 2 or 3 times, but the 10´th time it borderline extreme. Limitless does not equal perfection. Some limits is always needed in some form or another.

[Volke 131]

Permadeath suggestion will never go through - but It ticks me off how little people value their avatar's life in the belief that oh -I'll respawn. What agitates me more is people who fish for reasons to fight: he called me a shit - Initiate and kill for non-compliance! This mentality and attitude needs to change.

---

You cannot force your playstyle on them, nor they can force theirs on your.

So the fact that some people are immortal and yet end up getting shot daily but never die is not a one-sided benefit then in your opinion? You are getting forced by the fact that you cannot make them stop "until" they choose to. It´s always the same. When the bullet bites back and it backfires, the " fun " suddenly stops.

This here agitates me so much...I can name people who piss off everyone and get perma'd on a daily basis and rp as nothings happened. While I get rp freedom is important -it is disgustingly ridiculous how people look for hostilities die - and not suffer any consequences because players have total freedom.

[DonLedon 3]

Permadeath suggestion will never go through - but It ticks me off how little people value their avatar's life in the belief that oh -I'll respawn. What agitates me more is people who fish for reasons to fight: he called me a shit - Initiate and kill for non-compliance! This mentality and attitude needs to change.

Oh, neither you nor Grihm should get me wrong, I'm not saying "He died *xx* times, permadeath that sob", I'm just saying we should add some rules and, of course, punishments for players acting that way. I'm not the one you should ask how to write a good punishment or decent rules, I leave that to admins, just saying something needs to be added, not permadeath, but something.

[Volke 131]

So the fact that some people are immortal and yet end up getting shot daily but never die is not a one-sided benefit then in your opinion? You are getting forced by the fact that you cannot make them stop "until" they choose to. It´s always the same. When the bullet bites back and it backfires, the " fun " suddenly stops.

Well, I am 100% against forcing perma-death on anyone, but Grihm has a point here. There should be some limitations to ones play style. Alright, you could get shot few times in a row and survive, but to see a man get killed in front of your eyes 10+ times (and that is only how often you've seen it) and he always gets better and saved by some miracle is bs if you ask me. I'm not saying we should all go out and play peaceful farmers now, but people should have more value for their lifes, NVFL rule is ok, but just ok, it doesn't stop this things from happening.

Now, not to make it just a rant, I've seen, in my personal experience, a man that has been killed about six times on GM, I know of it because he said that he had "blackouts" after going to GM. 

Its ok, but admins should control this kind of behaviour.

This right here. +1 entirely.

[Wendsill 0]

You don´t know, but you assume, and assume away if you wish, but it changes nothing. My claims is in how thing have progressed since the start of SA. I am not the first one talking about the issues in the situation that is at present. Pretending it all to be all superb is really confusing since it´s clearly not.

So the fact that some people are immortal and yet end up getting shot daily but never die is not a one-sided benefit then in your opinion? You are getting forced by the fact that you cannot make them stop "until" they choose to. It´s always the same. When the bullet bites back and it backfires, the " fun " suddenly stops.

Maybe you are right, I assumed you had knowledge of the rules, I might have been wrong in that assumption, so I apologize for that.

So basicly this revolves on 2 things, your claim that people logg off too early and your claim that people cannot take revenge for actions and if they do that people come back after being killed.

Lets assume for 1 minute that Rolle goes mental and decides to implements the permadeath rule. How do you think this is going to be monitored?

Do we assign staff members to watch all the logs from every server looking for connections,deaths, and the consequent namechange which should follow? Where do you draw the line? How are you going to enforce? Do you want that people to report others for not permadeathing their character? Don't you think that actions like that only will result in more OOC-hate?

Do you have any idea on how much work that is? How long do you think that people can shift through logs before going out of their mind?

Do you really want to limit people in their creative freedom?

So, yes it could be unrealistic, but on the other hand, if you personally kill a person 10 times, aren't you doing something wrong as well?