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Chinchilla

New Hostage Rule Input

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Chinchilla    75

I'm going to try an keep this simple as adding too much detail will end up in a wall of text.

My group took 3 hostages. 1 of which was part of a large group. This group say they followed us from Novy, to Zub, to the apartments above Cherno. We took them into a specific apartment building up the ladder and up two more flights of stairs (unsure what floor that actually was). Within minutes of arriving we were initiated on by the other group.

Demands were come out with your hands up etc etc. So we comply, but we're spread out between various apartments etc. I believe each group had 5+ people (give or take).

At least 2 in my group (including me) comply and another 2 either complied or were taken hostage. As I'm taken hostage I've got my hands on my head IG so I mute my TS "radio". I now can no longer use it. I ask the person who took me if I should get on it and tell some of my group to come out. He says no, not now.

No worries, so they take the 4 of us up into another apartment and start questioning us. At no point was I then asked to tell other members of my group to surrender. 4 of us, with hands up, being questioned... not breaking the rules by using TS as a radio.

I was then asked 1 question, told I was not telling the truth and killed. No RP, I was compliant. (as were the rest of the compliant hostages).

Now, don't get me wrong, it was a shit show, people were everywhere, shots continuously were heard. Due to this I hopped in the other groups open comms... Merely to ask why I was killed.

This is when I was "educated" about the "new hostage rule" and apparently they had another hostage.... not one of the 4 in the room with me.... and told one of us to tell everyone to surrender. This option was never given to me, even though I asked for it when I first surrendered. Furthermore, I would not have surrendered if I knew there would be close to no RP involved and the new "rule" would be used to just kill myself and my friends.

I don't pretend to be great at pvp, or even good at it.. but it was dark, there were tons of screaming IG... it was hard to hear who was who, who was actually talking to you, and even what was actually being said.... that being said it was dark and confusing ... If we wanted to have some huge death match we would have. We were held up in a room with 1 enterance, we could have negotiated the release of the hostage they wanted, but we surrendered in hopes for good RP. We run around taking hostages quite a lot, so the thought (for me at least) of being on the other side was interesting.

I'm not upset I died, as my other option was to try and kill the attacking group... and as I said I don't have extensive PvP experience. And let's face it, it's pretty easy to gear back up in the game's current state anyway.

So basically I'm looking for some clarification on the rule, as it seems like it failed to produce any "more" RP in this case.

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Chow    45

Well it all comes down to the group that attacked you.

If their up for RP or Revenge.

- In this case it looks like revenge.

But i agree. the new rules beeing said should have a little description about them, as the old ones have been tested for Months, even years and are clear and working. But these old ones should be explained a little bit better.

I do not think the new rules grants you any KoS rights.

- And you where a compliant hostage, and no big of a threat i presume.

- The RP where in your description not very good, and i do not belive they RP'd it out to proper Execution rights.

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Guest   
Guest

Here's the reasons you guys were executed in the end. And why this thread is a little bit too one-sided and passive agressive.

  • You kidnapped our man.
  • We grabbed two of your people hostage, two of the people who kidnapped and escorted our man, we held a radio to their heads and forced them to tell their people that if we get shot at, we will be executing the hostages.
  • We made multiple demands for the hostage takes to release the hostages and walk out with their hands above their heads or we would kill them and the hostages. We made demands regularly.
  • We overheard a conversation between you and our man, where you talk about the Chedaki and the alleged mass murders. Acknowledging Igor is Chedaki.
  • We get shot at multiple times after the radio call, one shot hit me as I was drinking. The others hit next to people.
  • We initiated on all the hostage takes repeatedly, Chinchilla decided not to comply at first, complied like 15 minutes later. Atleast.
  • They were asked why they kidnapped a chedaki, they lied about not knowing he was chedaki. They were told that if they lie, they'd die. They were also explained to that we heard the conversation. They still lied.
  • We kept yelling for you to surrender or die, took like 20 minutes for you to comply.
  • You kill the hostage we came to rescue.
  • There was constant RP for like an hour. That's from the point we initiated, not from your capture of the hostage.

The hostage rule worked just as intended - No longer can your group act without repercussions. Especially not after you already killed the hostage we came for.

Had we wished to resolve this without RP, we would have had our man who was within 500 meters snipe you.

We came to get RP out of it. These are the reasons it was cut "short" after about an hour.

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redspear461    0

Sorry that this happened to you Chinchilla, this rule is a little confusing, but you'll understand it in time like I did.

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Dew    226

I think these guys were panicking because there were shots going of which led to them to do what ever they could to get rid of the hostages to focus on the shooting. That really does suck that that happened to you.

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Guest Viktor Kolenkeov   
Guest Viktor Kolenkeov

Wow crazy hope you guys figure it out.

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Guest K-Jack   
Guest K-Jack

.... not one of the 4 in the room with me.... 

I would recommend consulting with fellow group members when making statements such as these. Franz was given a radio twice to contact you guys and quit shooting at us. Yuri was in the room with him. We even talked about the whole thing in TS afterwards.

The hostage rule works and provides the possibility for RP, but it takes two to tango.

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Chinchilla    75

Here's the reasons you guys were executed in the end. And why this thread is a little bit too one-sided and passive agressive.

*You kidnapped our man.

*We grabbed two of your people hostage, two of the people who kidnapped and escorted our man, we held a radio to their heads and forced them to tell their people that if we get shot at, we will be executing the hostages.

*We made multiple demands for the hostage takes to release the hostages and walk out with their hands above their heads or we would kill them and the hostages. We made demands regularly.

*We overheard a conversation between you and our man, where you talk about the Chedaki and the alleged mass murders. Acknowledging Igor is Chedaki.

*We get shot at multiple times after the radio call, one shot hit me as I was drinking. The others hit next to people.

*We initiated on all the hostage takes repeatedly, Chinchilla decided not to comply at first, complied like 15 minutes later. Atleast.

*They were asked why they kidnapped a chedaki, they lied about not knowing he was chedaki. They were told that if they lie, they'd die. They were also explained to that we heard the conversation. They still lied.

*We kept yelling for you to surrender or die, took like 20 minutes for you to comply.

*You kill the hostage we came to rescue.

*There was constant RP for like an hour. That's from the point we initiated, not from your capture of the hostage.

The hostage rule worked just as intended - No longer can your group act without repercussions. Especially not after you already killed the hostage we came for.

Had we wished to resolve this without RP, we would have had our man who was within 500 meters snipe you.

We came to get RP out of it. These are the reasons it was cut "short" after about an hour.

.... not one of the 4 in the room with me.... 

I would recommend consulting with fellow group members when making statements such as these. Franz was given a radio twice to contact you guys and quit shooting at us. Yuri was in the room with him. We even talked about the whole thing in TS afterwards.

The hostage rule works and provides the possibility for RP, but it takes two to tango.

ok, let me rephrase

I was not given the option, nor was anyone given the option while we were all in the room.

I'm not trying to fight here guys, maybe the best question to ask would be:

Does the New Hostage Rule take precedence over killing a complying hostage that has met all demands?

People had surrendered after fighting to understand who was saying what.... upon putting my hands up and following orders and surrendering I the person who followed all your instructions are now able to be killed? Does it really span all the people in a large group like that? And more importantly, is this the intent of the rule?

If the intent is to provide "more" RP then it didn't, for me, in this case.

Maybe staff not in their group can chime in? Should I have put this in staff discussion or something?

The goal here was to see if maybe I just got people on a bad day? Or if this is a common problem other people have had.

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Guest

And I simply added the other side of the story, to add the necessary details to the discussion here. This was not an attack or an attempt to start an argument. It was simply done to provide a full spectrum of what happened and leave the people with the relevant information, that you so happened to have accidentally left out. Rather have that than a question which is loaded and manipulated to get a certain answer by leaving out vital and relevant information.

We spent around an hour with you and your group, not counting the travel time, trying to get this RP'd out well and interesting. Takes two to tango, we weren't left with any reasonable options and took the reasonable way out to minimize casualties on our side. We had received literally no reason to keep you alive. We had already made the demand of not being fired upon before we switched building, if I recall, twice even. No need to repeat after the demand clearly wasn't followed. And then you killed the hostage we came to rescue. At that point, you had literally no bargaining chips and the only thing you offered were bullets.

As can be seen, this end had been building up start to finish based on the actions of the opposite party.

If we simply wanted to kill you, we would have done so in the forests when you were bunched up and without good cover. Or when you were travelling next to the dirt road. We had people within 20-40 meters of you during most of the hostage transport. We let you finish so we could have some RP and mount a hostage rescue in a bit more interesting way.

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Chinchilla    75

And I simply added the other side of the story, to add the necessary details to the discussion here. This was not an attack or an attempt to start an argument. It was simply done to provide a full spectrum of what happened and leave the people with the relevant information, that you so happened to have accidentally left out. Rather have that than a question which is loaded and manipulated to get a certain answer by leaving out vital and relevant information.

We spent around an hour with you and your group, not counting the travel time, trying to get this RP'd out well and interesting. Takes two to tango, we weren't left with any reasonable options and took the reasonable way out to minimize casualties on our side. We had received literally no reason to keep you alive. We had already made the demand of not being fired upon before we switched building, if I recall, twice even. No need to repeat after the demand clearly wasn't followed. And then you killed the hostage we came to rescue. At that point, you had literally no bargaining chips and the only thing you offered were bullets.

As can be seen, this end had been building up start to finish based on the actions of the opposite party.

If we simply wanted to kill you, we would have done so in the forests when you were bunched up and without good cover. Or when you were travelling next to the dirt road. We had people within 20-40 meters of you during most of the hostage transport. We let you finish so we could have some RP and mount a hostage rescue in a bit more interesting way.

I don't understand why you keep defending yourself when nobody is attacking you. I never mentioned you, or your group in my original post. It's simply to ask the staff and other members of the community if this is how the rule is intended to be used.

We have all these rules in this community, and most people follow them. I believe both our groups were doing what we thought was right, and nobody was breaking rules right? But the amount of gray area is just making me scratch my head.

You have 1 man from our group come on the radio, tell us to surrender and nobody else dies.

As soon as I comply and put my hands up my radio is now off. I complied, came outside, asked to get on the radio to tell them to stop. I'm told no.

I follow all instructions.

I'm brought into another building where others are held.

I get killed after questioning and deemed that I was fibbing.

This isn't a question about when you could have, would have, wanted to shoot at us. It's a question about the gray area of the situation, and the fact that it did nothing to enhance RP. It simply allowed you to group up zero-threat captives (who now have no control over the other people in the group) who complied with your demands, and mow them down.

Is this really the intent of the new rule?

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Guest K-Jack   
Guest K-Jack

I was not given the option, nor was anyone given the option while we were all in the room.

We aren't defending ourselves Chinchilla, we are giving the full picture so a proper discussion can be had; after all this was posted in General Discussion. This rule is still a WIP and all feedback is necessary for the Admins to decide whether to keep this rule permanent. When people post feedback that is intentionally misleading by leaving out vital information, it becomes an issue.

Your account of the events is false, plain and simple. You claim that we made no contact with you guys and even though you complied we killed you. No, thats not what happened. We took you hostage, gave Franz the radio telling him to tell his friends to stop shooting at us so we could discuss a hostage swap. Not only do your people keep shooting at us, you even kill the hostage. After moving you into the building, TheJuggernut gets shot again, and while we could have killed you right then and there, we give Franz the radio for a second time to demand people stop shooting at us. We are then shot again. Now we could have killed you but instead kept RPing, at which point you and another hostage flat out lied to us about knowing our man was a Chedaki, even though he was double micing in TS so we could hear the whole conversation. You kept lying so we shot you both. At which point we are fired upon again and we decide to cut our losses and kill the other two hostages.

The hostage rule works. It is there to provide RP. However the rescuing party needs to behave realistically and value the life of their friends. If after demanding to stop attacking they keep attacking, then the life of the hostage is forfeit. I even told Franz to tell your guys to come negotiate for your lives. I know for a fact you still had people in the area who weren't hostages so they could have done that.

I'm all up for good constructive debate, however what I don't like is posts like this with an agenda which want to clearly skew the progress one way by leaving out very key pieces of information. This is why Juggernut and I felt it necessary to step in and straighten the facts.

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Caesar    438

Here's the reasons you guys were executed in the end. And why this thread is a little bit too one-sided and passive agressive.

*You kidnapped our man.

*We grabbed two of your people hostage, two of the people who kidnapped and escorted our man, we held a radio to their heads and forced them to tell their people that if we get shot at, we will be executing the hostages.

*We made multiple demands for the hostage takes to release the hostages and walk out with their hands above their heads or we would kill them and the hostages. We made demands regularly.

*We overheard a conversation between you and our man, where you talk about the Chedaki and the alleged mass murders. Acknowledging Igor is Chedaki.

*We get shot at multiple times after the radio call, one shot hit me as I was drinking. The others hit next to people.

*We initiated on all the hostage takes repeatedly, Chinchilla decided not to comply at first, complied like 15 minutes later. Atleast.

*They were asked why they kidnapped a chedaki, they lied about not knowing he was chedaki. They were told that if they lie, they'd die. They were also explained to that we heard the conversation. They still lied.

*We kept yelling for you to surrender or die, took like 20 minutes for you to comply.

*You kill the hostage we came to rescue.

*There was constant RP for like an hour. That's from the point we initiated, not from your capture of the hostage.

The hostage rule worked just as intended - No longer can your group act without repercussions. Especially not after you already killed the hostage we came for.

Had we wished to resolve this without RP, we would have had our man who was within 500 meters snipe you.

We came to get RP out of it. These are the reasons it was cut "short" after about an hour.

.... not one of the 4 in the room with me.... 

I would recommend consulting with fellow group members when making statements such as these. Franz was given a radio twice to contact you guys and quit shooting at us. Yuri was in the room with him. We even talked about the whole thing in TS afterwards.

The hostage rule works and provides the possibility for RP, but it takes two to tango.

ok, let me rephrase

I was not given the option, nor was anyone given the option while we were all in the room.

I'm not trying to fight here guys, maybe the best question to ask would be:

Does the New Hostage Rule take precedence over killing a complying hostage that has met all demands?

People had surrendered after fighting to understand who was saying what.... upon putting my hands up and following orders and surrendering I the person who followed all your instructions are now able to be killed? Does it really span all the people in a large group like that? And more importantly, is this the intent of the rule?

If the intent is to provide "more" RP then it didn't, for me, in this case.

Maybe staff not in their group can chime in? Should I have put this in staff discussion or something?

The goal here was to see if maybe I just got people on a bad day? Or if this is a common problem other people have had.

This is actually the intent of the rule. To clarify it encourages but does not force people to use KoS rights wisely. If they do not then deaths can follow. The old rule was chronically abused. It's tough love but the rules current reception is encouraging.

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Guest   
Guest

And I simply added the other side of the story, to add the necessary details to the discussion here. This was not an attack or an attempt to start an argument. It was simply done to provide a full spectrum of what happened and leave the people with the relevant information, that you so happened to have accidentally left out. Rather have that than a question which is loaded and manipulated to get a certain answer by leaving out vital and relevant information.

We spent around an hour with you and your group, not counting the travel time, trying to get this RP'd out well and interesting. Takes two to tango, we weren't left with any reasonable options and took the reasonable way out to minimize casualties on our side. We had received literally no reason to keep you alive. We had already made the demand of not being fired upon before we switched building, if I recall, twice even. No need to repeat after the demand clearly wasn't followed. And then you killed the hostage we came to rescue. At that point, you had literally no bargaining chips and the only thing you offered were bullets.

As can be seen, this end had been building up start to finish based on the actions of the opposite party.

If we simply wanted to kill you, we would have done so in the forests when you were bunched up and without good cover. Or when you were travelling next to the dirt road. We had people within 20-40 meters of you during most of the hostage transport. We let you finish so we could have some RP and mount a hostage rescue in a bit more interesting way.

I don't understand why you keep defending yourself when nobody is attacking you.  I never mentioned you, or your group in my original post.  It's simply to ask the staff and other members of the community if this is how the rule is intended to be used.

We have all these rules in this community, and most people follow them.  I believe both our groups were doing what we thought was right, and nobody was breaking rules right?  But the amount of gray area is just making me scratch my head.

 

You have 1 man from our group come on the radio, tell us to surrender and nobody else dies.

As soon as I comply and put my hands up my radio is now off.  I complied, came outside, asked to get on the radio to tell them to stop.  I'm told no.  

I follow all instructions.

I'm brought into another building where others are held.

I get killed after questioning and deemed that I was fibbing.

This isn't a question about when you could have, would have, wanted to shoot at us.  It's a question about the gray area of the situation, and the fact that it did nothing to enhance RP.  It simply allowed you to group up zero-threat captives (who now have no control over the other people in the group) who complied with your demands, and mow them down.

Is this really the intent of the new rule?

And if one wishes to nurture a healthy debate and get a discussion regarding a scenario, especially one which happened in-game and left alot of salt, which fueled the thread from the start then the full spectrum should be given in the description of the events.

Not conveniently leave out alot of information to try and load the question and rig the answers. 

If one wants to actually contribute to the community and assist with feedback on the rules, then lies, or conveniently trying to leave out information is not the way to go. We're simply lucky we have to deal with this situation in a general discussion thread instead of a report, where the untruthfulness shown in this thread would have lead to punishment. 

Same as I would say I had hostile RP with a person, but no hostile action had been commited, after a while of heated fighting the person shoots me. And I refer to the event as "He didnt even rp with me, simply shot me as soon as he saw me. is this really OK??"

This has nothing to do with defending ourselves, we don't need to defend our actions.

If you wish to rewrite the OP to contain the full story and thus make it easier for the community to judge upon the full set of events, then that would benefit everyone. Try to keep it neutral and not loaded when it comes to discussions regarding rules.

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Guest   
Guest

I have a couple of questions for both parties just to clear things up about how the situation went down and how the new rule was used, I just want to point out that these are questions to things that I ALONE do not know and am just curious so take it easy with the accusations please.

-How did the Rescuers know the hostage had been killed when he was being stored in an enclosed space with no radio?

-how many shots in total where fired at the rescuers after the warning was issued through Franz? ( to the best of MY knowledge I was the only shooter outside of the target building and I fired all of 1 shots at you BEFORE you warned us and it was actually the bullet that hit 'TheJuggernut')

-Apparently the hostage actually took up arms and attempted to kill the hostage guard so wouldn't that be a grey area if we had to defend ourselves and kill him therefore granting you KOS rights? (technically speaking because to the best of MY knowledge you couldn't have known he had died anyway.)

I just want to add that I immediately ceased fire when you told us to stop firing (through Franz) because I thought it would affect the hostages safety even if I was a bit sceptical on the radio to that end but apparently that didn't change anything because they were executed anyway (something I learnt afterwards in TS). Now from my experience on that night the rule does introduce some grey areas especially with the hostage having apparent free will to attack his hostage takers so that his friends therefore have the green light to kill the hostage takers but anyway thats my input as an eyewitness to the event and someone who took part during the initiation.

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Guest

I have a couple of questions for both parties just to clear things up about how the situation went down and how the new rule was used, I just want to point out that these are questions to things that I ALONE do not know and am just curious so take it easy with the accusations please.

-How did the Rescuers know the hostage had been killed when he was being stored in an enclosed space with no radio?

-how many shots in total where fired at the rescuers after the warning was issued through Franz? ( to the best of MY knowledge I was the only shooter outside of the target building and I fired all of 1 shots at you BEFORE you warned us and it was actually the bullet that hit 'TheJuggernut')

-Apparently the hostage actually took up arms and attempted to kill the hostage guard so wouldn't that be a grey area if we had to defend ourselves and kill him therefore granting you KOS rights? (technically speaking because to the best of MY knowledge you couldn't have known he had died anyway.)

I just want to add that I immediately ceased fire when you told us to stop firing (through Franz) because I thought it would affect the hostages safety even if I was a bit sceptical on the radio to that end but apparently that didn't change anything because they were executed anyway (something I learnt afterwards in TS). Now from my experience on that night the rule does introduce some grey areas especially with the hostage having apparent free will to attack his hostage takers so that his friends therefore have the green light to kill the hostage takers but anyway thats my input as an eyewitness to the event and someone who took part during the initiation.

 

1. The hostage was killed during the rescue, he was physically seen being killed by your people.

2. The bullet that hit me was after the hostages had a radio held to their heads and been told to warn your people. We were shot at multiple times, a couple of times inside the actual apartments, outside, where you shot me as I was drinking, as we were transporting the hostages into the new building and as we were inside the new building Doc was shot at when he peaked a window. Luckily it missed.

3. As far as I've understood it, the hostage that took up arms was one of the other hostages you had taken, we gave him a pistol. He was not the one we came to rescue.

4. I think your timeline is a bit off. Again, the hostages were put on the radio with the demands before we moved buildings.

Which is a fair bit of time before I was shot.

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Scooter    51

1. The hostage was killed during the rescue, he was physically seen being killed by your people.

Mate, when the hostage is escorted out, comes back in with a gun, and almost kills one of us yeah we will kill him, that is just logic right there.

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Guest

1. The hostage was killed during the rescue, he was physically seen being killed by your people.

Mate, when the hostage is escorted out, comes back in with a gun, and almost kills one of us yeah we will kill him, that is just logic right there.

Not disputing your right to kill, we have not claimed any violation of the rules on the kill. 

In character though, I don't really care about your reason. Thus, it's one of the factors taken into account.

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Guest

I have a couple of questions for both parties just to clear things up about how the situation went down and how the new rule was used, I just want to point out that these are questions to things that I ALONE do not know and am just curious so take it easy with the accusations please.

-How did the Rescuers know the hostage had been killed when he was being stored in an enclosed space with no radio?

-how many shots in total where fired at the rescuers after the warning was issued through Franz? ( to the best of MY knowledge I was the only shooter outside of the target building and I fired all of 1 shots at you BEFORE you warned us and it was actually the bullet that hit 'TheJuggernut')

-Apparently the hostage actually took up arms and attempted to kill the hostage guard so wouldn't that be a grey area if we had to defend ourselves and kill him therefore granting you KOS rights? (technically speaking because to the best of MY knowledge you couldn't have known he had died anyway.)

I just want to add that I immediately ceased fire when you told us to stop firing (through Franz) because I thought it would affect the hostages safety even if I was a bit sceptical on the radio to that end but apparently that didn't change anything because they were executed anyway (something I learnt afterwards in TS). Now from my experience on that night the rule does introduce some grey areas especially with the hostage having apparent free will to attack his hostage takers so that his friends therefore have the green light to kill the hostage takers but anyway thats my input as an eyewitness to the event and someone who took part during the initiation.

 

1. The hostage was killed during the rescue, he was physically seen being killed by your people.

2. The bullet that hit me was after the hostages had a radio held to their heads and been told to warn your people. We were shot at multiple times, a couple of times inside the actual apartments, outside, where you shot me as I was drinking, as we were transporting the hostages into the new building and as we were inside the new building Doc was shot at when he peaked a window. Luckily it missed.

3. As far as I've understood it, the hostage that took up arms was one of the other hostages you had taken, we gave him a pistol. He was not the one we came to rescue.

4. I think your timeline is a bit off. Again, the hostages were put on the radio with the demands before we moved buildings.

Which is a fair bit of time before I was shot.

Ill have to cross reference with the hostage guard as I was only aware of him guarding the hostage and in terms of the multiple warnings, I heard only one over TS from franz and I was un-muted the entire time so as far as I know I got one warning which I heeded and stopped firing. I believe the warning I heard was minutes after I shot you in the street.

But I think in assessing that situation I found something else, finding out whether it is a loophole for the hostage to take up arms and grants his rescuers KOS rights when he dies or if it is intended?

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Guest

I have a couple of questions for both parties just to clear things up about how the situation went down and how the new rule was used, I just want to point out that these are questions to things that I ALONE do not know and am just curious so take it easy with the accusations please.

-How did the Rescuers know the hostage had been killed when he was being stored in an enclosed space with no radio?

-how many shots in total where fired at the rescuers after the warning was issued through Franz? ( to the best of MY knowledge I was the only shooter outside of the target building and I fired all of 1 shots at you BEFORE you warned us and it was actually the bullet that hit 'TheJuggernut')

-Apparently the hostage actually took up arms and attempted to kill the hostage guard so wouldn't that be a grey area if we had to defend ourselves and kill him therefore granting you KOS rights? (technically speaking because to the best of MY knowledge you couldn't have known he had died anyway.)

I just want to add that I immediately ceased fire when you told us to stop firing (through Franz) because I thought it would affect the hostages safety even if I was a bit sceptical on the radio to that end but apparently that didn't change anything because they were executed anyway (something I learnt afterwards in TS). Now from my experience on that night the rule does introduce some grey areas especially with the hostage having apparent free will to attack his hostage takers so that his friends therefore have the green light to kill the hostage takers but anyway thats my input as an eyewitness to the event and someone who took part during the initiation.

 

1. The hostage was killed during the rescue, he was physically seen being killed by your people.

2. The bullet that hit me was after the hostages had a radio held to their heads and been told to warn your people. We were shot at multiple times, a couple of times inside the actual apartments, outside, where you shot me as I was drinking, as we were transporting the hostages into the new building and as we were inside the new building Doc was shot at when he peaked a window. Luckily it missed.

3. As far as I've understood it, the hostage that took up arms was one of the other hostages you had taken, we gave him a pistol. He was not the one we came to rescue.

4. I think your timeline is a bit off. Again, the hostages were put on the radio with the demands before we moved buildings.

Which is a fair bit of time before I was shot.

Ill have to cross reference with the hostage guard as I was only aware of him guarding the hostage and in terms of the multiple warnings, I heard only one over TS from franz and I was un-muted the entire time so as far as I know I got one warning which I heeded and stopped firing. I believe the warning I heard was minutes after I shot you in the street.

But I think in assessing that situation I found something else, finding out whether it is a loophole for the hostage to take up arms and grants his rescuers KOS rights when he dies or if it is intended?

Forcing the hostages (Tan and Black m65) to make the radio calls was the first thing we did once we moved them down from the roof into an apartment.

Whether or not the hostages actually conveyed the messages the first time, or if you missed it, doesn't really matter too much.

We made demands, they weren't followed.

Keep in mind here, the hostile action was commited by your people from the start, it simply backfired on you. There were around 4-5 separate actions that built up to the end result together.

Again, we chose to try and deal with this in an RP matter to the extent we were able, simply wasn't returned with the ability to further do so. 

The second you (you, and the men in the apartment previously) pulled the trigger and tried to fire at us after the warnings, you condemned them to death. In combination with the non-compliance and the fact they kidnapped one of our men at gunpoint.

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