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MatthewFC

KoS rights gained on baiter

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MatthewFC    9

I need clarification on one thing about KoS rights gained upon a person that has been baiting you into initiating.

Let's say that A is being baited into initiating by Z. Z has friends within 500 m, X and Y, which have formed part of the same dynamic group recently and probably are communicating by radio with Z. The same goes for A, which is in contact with B and C, who have formed part of the same dynamic group and are within 500 m.

Now, Z might have been refusing to let A out of a building by blocking the exit, or he might have been following A despite numerous warnings not to. Maybe some other exotic variant of baiting, it doesn't really matter.

As baiting is treated right now, A gains insta-KoS rights on Z (as baiting constitutes an hostile action) and does not need to initiate on Z in order to gun him down. RP does take precedence, but given that the whole purpose of baiting is getting to lure A into initiating first, and A has already tried RPing a non-hostile resolution without initiating (if he didn't, it couldn't be ruled as baiting), the only options left are either initiating or just using those KoS rights gained trough baiting without initiating on Z.

So let's say A guns Z down using his newly gained KoS rights.

So, my questions are:

  1. Do X and Y gain KoS rights on A as he guns downs Z, or do they have to initiate?
  2. Does A gain KoS rights on X and Y as he gains KoS rights on Z?
  3. And, finally, do B and C gain KoS rights on anybody in the entire process?

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It all matters if they are really a dynamic groups together. If A,B, and C are a dynamic group then yes they would gain the KOS. That goes for X,Y, and Z as well. And for the Baiting that is more of a by the case situation. Most the time if you can walk away without initiating or using you KOS that is the best path. But as far as i know A,B, and C IF they are in a dynamic group would not gain KOS on all of X,Y, and Z just the aggressor. This is just really how i look at it. The best thing to do is just walk away and report the baiting. And of corse. When in doubt just initiate, Its always the safest way to go.

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Brad    155

  1. Do X and Y gain KoS rights on A as he guns downs Z, or do they have to initiate?  If they are part of the group and 500m then yes, the RP is there to gain KOS rights
  2. Does A gain KoS rights on X and Y as he gains KoS rights on Z? You would have to properly identify targets.  This would be a difficult thing to judge by your example.  Many variants as far as, where they are in relation to A/Z, what they have said, what they have done (have they been hostile at all?).   As Johnny said, an initiation would likely be preferred in this instance. 
  3. And, finally, do B and C gain KoS rights on anybody in the entire process? They would likely have rights on Z if he was being hostile.  As in answer two it would really depend on what X and Y are doing.  You have to clearly identify them as group members, and if you can't do that, you would need to initiate.

Hopefully I've fully understood the example you laid down there.  It's tough to go off of something like this but as you stated, roleplay it over ruleplay everytime and the experience will be a better one for all involved. Feel free to follow up if I wasn't specific enough.

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MatthewFC    9

It all matters if they are really a dynamic groups together. If A,B, and C are a dynamic group then yes they would gain the KOS. That goes for X,Y, and Z as well. And for the Baiting that is more of a by the case situation. Most the time if you can walk away without initiating or using you KOS that is the best path. But as far as i know A,B, and C IF they are in a dynamic group would not gain KOS on all of X,Y, and Z just the aggressor. This is just really how i look at it. The best thing to do is just walk away and report the baiting. And of corse. When in doubt just initiate, Its always the safest way to go.

I tried to cut the fat out of the case in order to make it more understandable, and the questions more clear. We're both similarly old RPers for this community and hopefully can understand when we are being given no option but to initiate, and when that's not the case. And, yes, it can be reported, but being able to post a report doesn't necessarily make it the number one priority. Logging out in the middle of the situation to report might not be the best option, more so if you have other matters to attend IC.

So, as the initial posts says, discount that baiting actually took place, that RPing it out was out of the question, that walking away was not an option (because the baiter was blocking the way out/following you around), and that A effectively gained KoS rights on Z. How do we answer questions 1, 2 and 3?

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1. YES. They are a dynamic group.

2. YES, if he can ID them 100% sure.

3. YES, again if they can 100% ID their targets.

KoS almost always goes both ways.

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MatthewFC    9

  1. Do X and Y gain KoS rights on A as he guns downs Z, or do they have to initiate?  If they are part of the group and 500m then yes, the RP is there to gain KOS rights
  2. Does A gain KoS rights on X and Y as he gains KoS rights on Z? You would have to properly identify targets.  This would be a difficult thing to judge by your example.  Many variants as far as, where they are in relation to A/Z, what they have said, what they have done (have they been hostile at all?).   As Johnny said, an initiation would likely be preferred in this instance. 
  3. And, finally, do B and C gain KoS rights on anybody in the entire process? They would likely have rights on Z if he was being hostile.  As in answer two it would really depend on what X and Y are doing.  You have to clearly identify them as group members, and if you can't do that, you would need to initiate.

Hopefully I've fully understood the example you laid down there.  It's tough to go off of something like this but as you stated, roleplay it over ruleplay everytime and the experience will be a better one for all involved. Feel free to follow up if I wasn't specific enough.

Thanks, it clarifies a lot.

So, by choosing to use his KoS rights, A may give KoS rights to other people that might be around (Z's dynamic group), so it's not always a "safe" route to use KoS rights even if you have been baited.

As for KoS rights on Z's dynamic group, A (and his dynamic group) gains them only if he has the dynamic group properly identified. If they're not sure, A's group would have to wait until Z's group actually becomes hostile.

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-Snip-

I tried to cut the fat out of the case in order to make it more understandable, and the questions more clear. We're both similarly old RPers for this community and hopefully can understand when we are being given no option but to initiate, and when that's not the case. And, yes, it can be reported, but being able to post a report doesn't necessarily make it the number one priority. Logging out in the middle of the situation to report might not be the best option, more so if you have other matters to attend IC.

So, as the initial posts says, discount that baiting actually took place, that RPing it out was out of the question, that walking away was not an option (because the baiter was blocking the way out/following you around), and that A effectively gained KoS rights on Z. How do we answer questions 1, 2 and 3?

Alright i got a better idea what you are talking about now. So i am going to use a situation i was in just to clear it up. So groups A,B, and C are up at green mtn hanging out and holding it. groups X,Y, and Z roll up to the Mtn to check it out. X sends a guy up into the tower to take a look and when he comes down to leave a Member of A blocks the door and refuses to move. Now due to the fact that A just took away X's free will by not letting him leave they have KOS on the guy blocking the door. Now here is where it gets tricky. Nobody has KOS on Member X's due to the fact that he has not been given a order, But all of group X,Y, and Z have KOS on the guy from group A blocking him in not letting him leave (If they are in the 500M that is) Now as soon as a members of X,Y, and Z shoot the member of A it gives KOS on X,Y, and Z to all of A,B, and C. Now as soon as A,B, and C started shooting at Any members of X,Y, or Z they gain KOS back. 

When it comes down to these situations it really matter on everything. The smallest change in the scenario can change everything.

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Brad    155

Alright i got a better idea what you are talking about now. So i am going to use a situation i was in just to clear it up. So groups A,B, and C are up at green mtn hanging out and holding it. groups X,Y, and Z roll up to the Mtn to check it out. X sends a guy up into the tower to take a look and when he comes down to leave a Member of A blocks the door and refuses to move. Now due to the fact that A just took away X's free will by not letting him leave they have KOS on the guy blocking the door. Now here is where it gets tricky. Nobody has KOS on Member X's due to the fact that he has not been given a order, But all of group X,Y, and Z have KOS on the guy from group A blocking him in not letting him leave (If they are in the 500M that is) Now as soon as a members of X,Y, and Z shoot the member of A it gives KOS on X,Y, and Z to all of A,B, and C. Now as soon as A,B, and C started shooting at Any members of X,Y, or Z they gain KOS back. 

When it comes down to these situations it really matter on everything. The smallest change in the scenario can change everything.

Exactly, as soon as someone commits hostilities to a group, even if they were hostitlies driven from an initial hostility (what?? :P), they gain rights.  But you do still need to make sure to identify correctly.

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MatthewFC    9

Alright i got a better idea what you are talking about now. So i am going to use a situation i was in just to clear it up. So groups A,B, and C are up at green mtn hanging out and holding it. groups X,Y, and Z roll up to the Mtn to check it out. X sends a guy up into the tower to take a look and when he comes down to leave a Member of A blocks the door and refuses to move. Now due to the fact that A just took away X's free will by not letting him leave they have KOS on the guy blocking the door. Now here is where it gets tricky. Nobody has KOS on Member X's due to the fact that he has not been given a order, But all of group X,Y, and Z have KOS on the guy from group A blocking him in not letting him leave (If they are in the 500M that is) Now as soon as a members of X,Y, and Z shoot the member of A it gives KOS on X,Y, and Z to all of A,B, and C. Now as soon as A,B, and C started shooting at Any members of X,Y, or Z they gain KOS back. 

When it comes down to these situations it really matter on everything. The smallest change in the scenario can change everything.

Exactly, as soon as someone commits hostilities to a group, even if they were hostitlies driven from an initial hostility (what?? :P), they gain rights.  But you do still need to make sure to identify correctly.

Thank you guys. I think this question is solved.

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Brad    155

Right on Matthew, feel free to ask here if anything related pops up

/Solved

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