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Garnet

Riots

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There are more people out there discouraging the rioting than there are those inciting it. However media prefers to look over that and go right to the violence

Huh, just like I've been saying for years? That people are social animals at heart and that the establishment of order is in everyone's best interest? That even in an apocalypse, people wouldn't immediately revert to animalistic kill or be killed behaviour? Oh wait, even that's too generous; animals try to avoid conflict when possible as even a slight injury could be life-threatening (in terms of reducing their overall fitness).

Sorry for off-topic, it just presses my buttons when people use things like this as their 'proof' that 'everyone' or the majority would leave their humanity behind in an apocalyptic scenario.

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Rito pls

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There are more people out there discouraging the rioting than there are those inciting it. However media prefers to look over that and go right to the violence

Huh, just like I've been saying for years? That people are social animals at heart and that the establishment of order is in everyone's best interest? That even in an apocalypse, people wouldn't immediately revert to animalistic kill or be killed behaviour? Oh wait, even that's too generous; animals try to avoid conflict when possible as even a slight injury could be life-threatening (in terms of reducing their overall fitness).

Sorry for off-topic, it just presses my buttons when people use things like this as their 'proof' that 'everyone' or the majority would leave their humanity behind in an apocalyptic scenario.

I couldn't agree any more enthusiastically.

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The police are paid professionals with responsibilities, unlike criminal gangs.

Yes, to protect people, unlike criminals and scum who hurt others for their own gain.

To say that he got himself killed is downright twisted.

Really now? Lets pull a DayZRP analogy in here then. Say, you find someone's stash of goodies and attempt to steal them. The owners discover you and initiate on you... "Hands up or we'll shoot!" ... you on the other hand decide its a great idea to resist and try to take off running. They don't want to kill you, so instead they shoot your legs to stop you from running... little did they know you were already low on blood and unhealthy and the shot consequentially kills you. Now, who's fault was that? Your's. You were breaking the law, and told to surrender, but you decided to run. Did they mean to kill you? No. They were just doing the right thing in a bad situation and trying to stop you from running.

Freddie Gray looked at the police officer the "wrong way ", and decided to start running away. He was pursued, caught and arrested. He managed to sustain a broken leg and was then dragged handcuffed to a police van with this broken leg.

I would like to show you his criminal record:

March 20, 2015: Possession of a Controlled Dangerous Substance

March 13, 2015: Malicious destruction of property, second-degree assault

January 20, 2015: Fourth-degree burglary, trespassing

January 14, 2015: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute

December 31, 2014: Possession of narcotics with intent to distribute

December 14, 2014: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance

August 31, 2014: Illegal gambling, trespassing

January 25, 2014: Possession of marijuana

September 28, 2013: Distribution of narcotics, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, second-degree assault, second-degree escape

April 13, 2012: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, violation of probation

July 16, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession with intent to distribute

March 28, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance

March 14, 2008: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to manufacture and distribute

February 11, 2008: Unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance, possession of a controlled dangerous substance

August 29, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, violation of probation

August 28, 2007: Possession of marijuana

August 23, 2007: False statement to a peace officer, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance

July 16, 2007: Possession of a controlled dangerous substance with intent to distribute, unlawful possession of a controlled dangerous substance (2 counts)

He sustained injuries from his own wrong doing, don't run and you wont get yourself hurt. Again, the police were trying to stop and subdue him, and when someone is thrashing and struggling, they often get themselves hurt.

Whilst in the van his spine somehow fractured, and it is highly likely that he was given a " rough ride " where the suspect is not belted to their seat and will bounce around against the hard walls of the van unable to break the impacts as they are handcuffed. (People have died this way in Maryland before)

Do you know that for sure? No, you are assuming this. So you say because you assume he was given a "rough ride", that the cops are in the wrong and its okay to go rioting? You have absolutely no factual evidence to support your assumption.

Again it is very easy to sit as a white person from the comfort of your own home, watching the news footage of rioters to think that it's just some blacks getting violent, then go online and make edgy comments about how "Don't commit crime if you don't want to get shot by police!"

So now you are being racist? It's easy to be a Caucasian, Asian, Hispanic, Indian, etc. person and say this. You bringing race into this shows how you see things since I have not once said the word "black" nor mentioned any race. The kid could have been any race for all I care, it has absolutely nothing to do with this nor should it have anything to do with this. Now, you call it an "edgy comment"? Really? I'm stating the obvious, don't break the law and you wont be punished. If you think that is "edgy", you need to rethink of how this country works.

Here's some. The majority of protesters were peaceful, the media didn't show that because it's not good television.

False, they did, I remember it all before they started getting violent. Of course they are gonna be showing the violent riots more too, why would you be filming people singing and butterflies flying around while right down the street half the city is on fire and people are smashing into things and screaming? (this is obviously an exaggeration, I'm just making a clear point)

In the words of MLK, riots are the voice of the unheard. People don't just decide one day that it will be fun to throw rocks and get arrested. Obviously there is an underlying long term issue, an issue that people who aren't mistreated by police will find it heard to empathise with.

And those same people will instantly believe a case of supposed "police brutality" the second they hear it. Riots are NOT the voice of the unheard, we hear you clearly, screaming and smashing windows, the real "voice of the unheard" are PEACEFUL PROTESTS. Going around breaking things isn't the way to make anything better for yourself. Take this as an example.... when you were little, and you did something wrong, your parents punished you for it. Now, if you start screaming and breaking things... what do you think is gonna happen? You think they are gonna go, "aww we are so sorry, we will do whatever you want" Absolutely not! And I honestly feel bad for those who are down there and are against all these riots because now it really makes them look bad because now the rioters made it harder on everyone. I think MLK would be ashamed.

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^^^ dem analogies were 10/10

Never got the whole rioting thing, It's like WHOOOO LETS ALL GET ARRESTED!!

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^^^ dem analogies were 10/10

Thanks bae ;)

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Maybe if people, not just a single race, would stop break the law, they would harbor different treatment. It's not about race. But, people are going to make it that way because had it been a white guy, would have never made the news.

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPvTTmhyB_w

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Yep, don't break the law. And no one rioted.

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snip

Pasting in his criminal record is meaningless. I don't care what he did or didn't do , you are entitled to not be killed by the police whilst in their custody.

The attitude of a select few here worryingly appears to advocate on the spot murder of criminals.

Are you genuine in your belief that all criminals should expect to get shot by the police?

" All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. " - Article 7 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

The police are entitled and trained to use the necessary force to detain a suspect.

According to witnesses, unnecessary use of force was used while arresting him.

Once a suspect is in police custody, officers have full responsibility over their well-being. In this case, it was severely neglected as Freddie Gray was fatally injured while in transit.

Also this is a race issue no matter how you paint it, you need only look at some statistics regarding police violence towards, specifically, black males. The relationship between white people and the police and black people and the police are two very different things in America. It's hard to recognize privilege when you are on the receiving end of it; there is routine maltreatment of African Americans in US law enforcement, backed up with statistics. As white people it's hard to see this, being treated relatively well by the cops.

It is vaguely comparable to men who deny the need for the feminist movement. From men's position of privilege, we find it hard to recognize the systematic and conventional double standards placed upon women in society, so when feminists make a fuss about something many men then react with contempt and snobbery, because they cannot empathize with the problems.

That is why it's a race issue.

Bringing it back to the topic, many here are implying that there is no reason for the Baltimore citizens to be rioting.

I partially agree with you in that I also condemn the riots. Violence is never the answer, it's common sense.

However just because the riots are wrong does not mean there is no cause, or no reason for them.

To deny that riots are the voice of the unheard is to say that the riots are completely unprovoked and just a random occurrence.

This was a clear cut case of police brutality, something which was clear right from the start.

Sitting around complaining about the rioters being idiotic or Freddie Gray being just another criminal who had it coming doesn't achieve anything. Is that going to do anything to stop all this happening again?

Logically, we need to go to square one and acknowledge cause and effect. What sparked the rioting? A problem within the police, and in society. Let's set about dealing with that problem collectively to make the USA a better place for everyone.

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As white people it's hard to see this, being treated relatively well by the cops.

You obviously do not know the police around were I live....

Anything can become a race, sex, and ethnicity thing if you look at it in a specific way.

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There are more people out there discouraging the rioting than there are those inciting it. However media prefers to look over that and go right to the violence

Huh, just like I've been saying for years? That people are social animals at heart and that the establishment of order is in everyone's best interest? That even in an apocalypse, people wouldn't immediately revert to animalistic kill or be killed behaviour? Oh wait, even that's too generous; animals try to avoid conflict when possible as even a slight injury could be life-threatening (in terms of reducing their overall fitness).

Sorry for off-topic, it just presses my buttons when people use things like this as their 'proof' that 'everyone' or the majority would leave their humanity behind in an apocalyptic scenario.

I couldn't agree any more enthusiastically.

2015-04-28t182619z1230137527gf10000076413rtrmadp3usa-police-baltimore.JPG?itok=cYJHJC2E

CDrLLJeWoAIAfKK.jpg

CDsDzpiWYAEYP8q.jpg:large

CDxGg-DWgAEfNpj.jpg

14302336838603.jpg?w=660

471415582.jpg.CROP.rtstoryvar-large.jpg

n-BALTIMORE-CLEAN-large570.jpg

I also agree. It pisses me off, especially when the news in my own city prefers to say "rioters caused police to tear gas them"

they didn't say the police fired tear gas into people's homes, though. :/

Why can't media ever show images like this, where people are ACTIVELY putting an effort to rebuild what others have destroyed?

Two rival gangs in St. Louis stood in front of stores and prevented looters from getting in.

They're treating Baltimore the same way and I just want to flip a table.

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^^^ dem analogies were 10/10

Thanks bae ;)

Sums it up well.

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Pasting in his criminal record is meaningless. I don't care what he did or didn't do , you are entitled to not be killed by the police whilst in their custody.

It does mean something in fact. It means that he obviously isn't an "innocent little boy", which backs up the case of the extent of him resisting arrest. You are entitled to not be killed while in police custody? Mmmyes, you are pretty much. This doesn't give you the right to act like an animal and thrash about, try to harm others, resist arrest further, I could really keep going on and on. Essentially, if you don't sit your ass down and shut up like you should, then they are going to make you, and you will most likely get yourself hurt because you are being an idiot.

The attitude of a select few here worryingly appears to advocate on the spot murder of criminals.

Personally, it depends on what they did. There are certain crimes I feel the criminal should be shot on sight for.

Are you genuine in your belief that all criminals should expect to get shot by the police?

I never said this. No criminal should expect to get shot by police IF he/she does as they are told. They're own fault if they don't listen.

" All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. " - Article 7 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Yes, all humans are equal before the law, all are given chances to put their hands up and come quietly. Humans do, however, have free will, and can make the stupid decision to run and resist... which leads into the next quote...

The police are entitled and trained to use the necessary force to detain a suspect.

The necessary force, yes. They will do whats necessary to detain you. If you are struggling and threatening their safety and kicking around like an animal, they are gonna be forcing you to the ground and working harder to pin you down. You can get hurt this way, and that is your own fault. They are doing whats necessary to detain you under the conditions you have created for them.

According to witnesses, unnecessary use of force was used while arresting him.

When aren't there witnesses that report this? It's hard to determine whats necessary and what is not when you are not involved in the situation. The witness lacks the facts of what is going on between the officer and the criminal. Lacks prior knowledge of the interaction between the two, and lacks the situational awareness that the officer has. Meaning that, you know when someone does something and you are like, "Well that looks easy!" And then you do it and find its actually extremely difficult? That's what's going on here, it looks bad, but people don't understand the effort it takes to actually restrain a flailing, thrashing individual.

Once a suspect is in police custody, officers have full responsibility over their well-being. In this case, it was severely neglected as Freddie Gray was fatally injured while in transit.

Yes, they do technically have this responsibility, but there are a number of factors that can change this. Just because you are cuffed and in the back of the patty wagon doesn't guarantee your safety under all circumstances. Only if you DO AS YOU ARE TOLD, which seems to be the overall problem of this entire issue, someone not doing as they are told and getting themselves hurt. If you are in the back of the car/van and are still struggling and/or causing harm to anything, officers will try to restrain you further, which goes back to what was said earlier about officers being trained to use necessary force to keep you restrained.

Also this is a race issue no matter how you paint it, you need only look at some statistics regarding police violence towards, specifically, black males. The relationship between white people and the police and black people and the police are two very different things in America. It's hard to recognize privilege when you are on the receiving end of it; there is routine maltreatment of African Americans in US law enforcement, backed up with statistics. As white people it's hard to see this, being treated relatively well by the cops.

It is vaguely comparable to men who deny the need for the feminist movement. From men's position of privilege, we find it hard to recognize the systematic and conventional double standards placed upon women in society, so when feminists make a fuss about something many men then react with contempt and snobbery, because they cannot empathize with the problems.

That is why it's a race issue.

No. It is not. You and everyone saying it is only makes matters worse. If you truly wanted equality and such, you would stop bringing it up. Stop claiming how "the white man is keeping you down", and stop saying how every act of violence between a white man and a black man is instantly a case of, "because he's black". In this case, if you did not make it about race, it would simply be a case of supposed police brutality, which is exactly how I see it because I see people as people, I don't see different races as, just that, different races. And, being a woman, I can understand that feminist movement example you gave. But, also being a woman, it makes my statement that much more powerful when I say that many feminist movements make a way bigger deal from things than they should. I think many feminists are waaay outta line with things and just simply extreme with their beliefs.

Bringing it back to the topic, many here are implying that there is no reason for the Baltimore citizens to be rioting.

I partially agree with you in that I also condemn the riots. Violence is never the answer, it's common sense.

However just because the riots are wrong does not mean there is no cause, or no reason for them.

I totally agree. However I never said there was no cause nor reason for them. The cause and reason are people freaking out and blowing their tops the instant they see someone mention police brutality and see its, in this case, between a black criminal and a white officer. We all obviously know about the riots and protests that have been happening nation wide due to this exact same situation. People are so ready to go at the throats of officers, that someone muttering police brutality will have them up in arms. Another reason is this racism many people seem to have, and when an issue between a white cop and black criminal happens, they automatically assume its because of race, and then everyone just jumps in with them because apparently its about race. Lets take that feminism example from earlier here. A cop arrests a women, the women gets herself hurt/killed in the process. Now I start screaming "Oh its because she's a women and the officer is a man!" and now I have tons of women behind me because it's now made into a feminist issue. You see how this is exactly the same thing with the whole racism claim?

To deny that riots are the voice of the unheard is to say that the riots are completely unprovoked and just a random occurrence.

This was a clear cut case of police brutality, something which was clear right from the start.

No it absolutely was not, this is literally what we are arguing about, it obviously, and was not, clear cut, nor in my opinion even police brutality. This claim has no factual evidence nor proof to it, and does nothing to support your argument.

Sitting around complaining about the rioters being idiotic or Freddie Gray being just another criminal who had it coming doesn't achieve anything. Is that going to do anything to stop all this happening again?

Logically, we need to go to square one and acknowledge cause and effect. What sparked the rioting? A problem within the police, and in society. Let's set about dealing with that problem collectively to make the USA a better place for everyone.

Yes, arguing won't help, some people are incredibly stubborn and will never admit to being wrong... which is one of the major issues for all this as well. You saying how it was a problem with the police proves this point is just completely wrong and shows how "acknowledging cause and effect" obviously will not work, because they're people out there who will never think they are in the wrong, and always think "the man is keeping them down". Problem in society? Yes, which is everything I've stated before about how people automatically assume its because of race, ignorant of the true meaning of the word and in turn being racist themselves. You want to make the US a better place for everyone? Stop automatically assuming its because of the color of your skin.


As white people it's hard to see this, being treated relatively well by the cops.

You obviously do not know the police around were I live....

Anything can become a race, sex, and ethnicity thing if you look at it in a specific way.

Exactly

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In your opinion it may have not been police brutality.

The State Attorney disagrees with you; the death of Freddie Gray has been ruled a homicide, and the officers involved have been charged respectively with second degree murder, manslaughter, misconduct and false imprisonment.

You accuse me of racism for making it into a race issue. Again I stand firm on this point it is a race issue without question.

We haven't achieved a utopian society where race, gender, sexuality and so on no longer matter. They do still matter.

I never said that the white man is keeping anyone down. I never said that any conflict between whites and blacks is automatically linked to race. Police brutality towards black males is commonly accepted as a highly racial issue. Nobody is saying that this individual case was 100% because Freddie Gray was black. It's highly likely though.

As a black teen you're 21 times as likely to be killed by police as a white teen.

If we live in a country where there are no race issues, then why do we have this statistic?

The refusal to acknowledge/ignorance of race issues back in the days of Martin Luther King was viewed by MLK himself as a much larger obstacle towards black liberation than the KKK and other extremists. Anyone who claims there is no race issue is doing nothing to solve racial inequality.

Again I go back to a feminism as an analogy. Statistics exist that prove there exists a pay gap between men and women for doing the same work. I would conclude from this that there is gender inequality at play and we must try to solve this problem. However, by your logic I am needlessly turning everything into a gender issue and clearly don't want equality for women.

We all know you can't change your gender, sexuality or race. But humans have a history of discriminating against certain people based on these variables. I really wish we could live in a world where none of it mattered, clearly you do too, but I simply can't understand how you refuse to acknowledge the problem of police brutality against African American males considering the statistics. I want equality which is exactly why I am bringing it up, even though it surfaces huge and complicated questions and it's human nature to want to keep everything simple.

Even if we lived in a society without discrimination where everyone were equal, there still exists a police brutality problem, given that the United States was asked by the UN to investigate the extremely high levels of police brutality in America compared to every other western nation.

I revert back to the beginning of this post, information which proves that there are grounds to assume that this was indeed a likely case of police brutality.

That means there is a problem within our police which needs to be thoroughly addressed as quickly as possible, whilst acknowledging that the overwhelming majority of our cops are good people.

There are certain crimes I feel the criminal should be shot on sight for.

Our views differ too much on this for me to even attempt to convince you, but I just had to say something on this.

There are places where this happened in the past, including Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. Personally I don't support the idea of a police officer becoming a judge, jury and executioner. I also don't agree with capital punishment or execution without trial.

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I also don't agree with capital punishment

But then you are forced to pay for the bastard the rest of his life.

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I also agree. It pisses me off, especially when the news in my own city prefers to say "rioters caused police to tear gas them"

they didn't say the police fired tear gas into people's homes, though. :/

Why can't media ever show images like this, where people are ACTIVELY putting an effort to rebuild what others have destroyed?

Two rival gangs in St. Louis stood in front of stores and prevented looters from getting in.

They're treating Baltimore the same way and I just want to flip a table.

It's one of the more insidious ways that racism perpetuates itself. The media only reports those images because violence is sexy, violence sells, while a not-insignificant number of their viewing public latch onto it as proof that black people are violent animals that deserve to be beaten and killed by the police for committing any infraction whatsoever. So you keep seeing images of the burning CVS without seeing that far more people showed up to clean up in the aftermath, while it took a local affiliate to report on what Baltimore gangs were doing to keep people from committing more violence.

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The same thing happened in the aftermath of the LA riots, and nobody reports on that. Second amendment groups are happy to share images of the store owner fending off looters with an AK47, but how often do you hear about what the Bloods and Crips did to try and rebuild their city? They even had an entire economic plan that they submitted to the city that would keep younger generations from wanting to turn to crime, and they were ignored.

"Give us the hammer and the nails, we will rebuild the city."

-snip-

I really do appreciate your level-headed posts in this thread, because to be perfectly honest a lot of the replies here are absolutely infuriating me well past the point of wishing to remain civil.

To the rest of you: it took the National Guard to prevent hundreds of people from lynching small children for daring to want to go to an integrated school. Do you really think that that kind of hatred, that kind of system, just evaporates within the span of a couple of years?

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Because it doesn't.

ETA:

But then you are forced to pay for the bastard the rest of his life.

It's more expensive to put a prisoner to death than it is to incarcerate them for the rest of their lives.

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Yes, it is easy to think like this, and I'm trying to keep a level head. But it's really difficult to stay calm when it's an issue that affects the people you know. Honestly, I'm kind of surprised that mods have allowed the thread to go on as long as it has, since this is an issue that is so obviously going to have very strong, polarized opinions.

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Yes, it is easy to think like this, and I'm trying to keep a level head. But it's really difficult to stay calm when it's an issue that affects the people you know. Honestly, I'm kind of surprised that mods have allowed the thread to go on as long as it has, since this is an issue that is so obviously going to have very strong, polarized opinions.

Because it hasn't descended into flaming. The views of some here are seemingly highly authoritarian and right wing, though not explicitly offensive, merely extreme.

It's a valid discussion, though in my opinion the discussion should not be whether or not police brutality and racial discrimination exist, as this should be a given, rather how to tackle them.

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It's more expensive to put a prisoner to death than it is to incarcerate them for the rest of their lives.

Bullets are not that expensive, but whatever you say bro.

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It's more expensive to put a prisoner to death than it is to incarcerate them for the rest of their lives.

Bullets are not that expensive, but whatever you say bro.

You are free to read the studies for yourself.

I was alluding to something else.

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Maryland state attorney is not a good women. An officer was clear of his charges after a trail and found not guilty. She put him BACK ON TRIAL! He then got convicted of murder. I'm sorry but this goes against our rights as U.S citizens. I don't like that women.

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Maryland state attorney is not a good women. An officer was clear of his charges after a trail and found not guilty. She put him BACK ON TRIAL! He then got convicted of murder. I'm sorry but this goes against our rights as U.S citizens. I don't like that women.

What was he charged for first? And were the second charges different?

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Maryland state attorney is not a good women. An officer was clear of his charges after a trail and found not guilty. She put him BACK ON TRIAL! He then got convicted of murder. I'm sorry but this goes against our rights as U.S citizens. I don't like that women.

What was he charged for first? And were the second charges different?

They needed to be, no double jeopardy

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