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Chip

Is this a legitimate initiation tactic?

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So I'm sure by now the forum moderates and admins are up to there necks in reports about the recent big happenings at GM on S2. I was there from the start and saw basically the whole thing until the point where I died. However I'm not here to talk about the killings themselves as those are things to be handled in each respective report. I want to ask a question about something that has happened to me 3 times now.

Is it a legitimate initiation tactic to go up the tower at Green Mountain, pull out your gun, and tell everyone on the ground level to drop weapons and get on the ground or you will be shot. I have actually had someone run into the tower of Green Mountain and do this same exact thing to me several times. In my eyes it is NOT a legitimate initiation from both a practical and RP side.

From the practical side you are trapping yourself in a tower with only one way up or down and then telling a bunch of people on the ground to do what you want. You have no way of IDing everyone as from the tower you can't actually see everyone. Also you have no way to actually control them outside of killing them. This leads to a standoff which is what has happened every single time.

From a RP side honestly this is just lame. Realistically if you saw a group of people sitting around a fire in the middle of a compound would you run up a tower and start yelling commands to them. No you wouldn't. It provides no RP for the people involved as you are not actually interacting with them outside of telling them not to move or be shot. If you told them to stay still while you come down the ladder they would have plenty of time to pick up their weapon and be waiting for you to round the corner off the ladder.

Any guidance or opinions on this?

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It is a legit initiation.

RP wise its pretty poor, but you hopefully have to just comply and see where the initiators go with it. If you decided to fight back, do not expect RP in return.

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Well unless they have ground people they could be considered NVFL cause they would be trapped their in a endless re initiation causing him to starve to death?

I find it very cowardly and brakes RP for me.

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Guest Phat J

Yes it is valid initiation.

Although it can be considered as BadRP in certain situations.

Say you have 2 people run into the tower and have people on the ground level watching if the people initiated on comply. In this case it wouldn't be classified as BadRP.

Say you have no back-up/allies and decide to do this, then it can be considered as BadRP.

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Well unless they have ground people they could be considered NVFL cause they would be trapped their in a endless re initiation causing him to starve to death?

I find it very cowardly and brakes RP for me.

That is exactly how I feel. Every time it has happened I have instantly thought to myself, "Oh God another 30mins of some guy yelling commands, followed by a 2hr standoff." It is not RP at all. The person is likely not gonna come down because they know they don't have full control of the situation on the ground. He could easily come down the tower to finish the RP just to have two guys waiting in the hallway with guns pointed at him. He knows that so he never comes down. I've seen it happen 3 times now. Instead it always turns into a yelling fest and then an endless standoff.


Yes it is valid initiation.

Although it can be considered as BadRP in certain situations.

Say you have 2 people run into the tower and have people on the ground level watching if the people initiated on comply. In this case it wouldn't be classified as BadRP.

Say you have no back-up/allies and decide to do this, then it can be considered as BadRP.

The second is exactly what I am talking about. All three times it's happened to me it's been the second one.

The first option would be legit as you would want people in the tower to keep lookout on the road.

I just feel like initiation is suppose to be a face to face encounter. Maybe that's just me though.

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In my opinion, this is fairly simple to me. If one guy does this. It's pretty much NVFL, especially if there are multiple people around him. (If i were one of the people down on the ground, I would just sprint of the tower because he can't look directly under him.)

If he's a scout of a bigger group, than this would be a valid initiation. He's putting himself in a more favorable position so that he is likely to be shot. Decreasing the risk of getting shot. You're right. He might not have a completely overview of who's there, but that's where his allies on the ground could come into play.

An initiation doesn't necessarily have to be a face to face encounter. People/Groups can put themselves up on a more favorable position. (Ditches, roofs etc) As long as they are in earshot and the other person can hear the initiation, It's fine. For example in the ditch situation, the victim might not at first see the enemy, until he comes out.

Hope this clears it up a little.

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Here is part of the problem I have with those who initiate up in the tower at GM, if they go alone that would be NVFL, however, if they have allies on the ground it is suppose to be ok, many of these allies will not identify themselves and are usually the ones responsible for the killing.

As the rules are currently written it states: "You have to make contact with the target before initiating a hostile action against it." (look at that closely) it's not that initiating it's the hostile ACT that's there's no contact from those below. Those above rarely do the hostilities just make the demands.

I, like many people who are being killed by previously unidentified allies, are finding it a bitter thing as these people on the ground usually do not identify themselves as part of those in the tower.

I think it's something they should have to do before they take that hostile final step. I mean they could continue to go undetected RP wise by being those who encourage the group below to do as they say. Another example is, prior to shooting a target they identify make their demand and if complied with they can RP that they gagged them or do SOMETHING other then shoot them.

It would also help if those up in the tower were a little more clear in their statements such as "Drop your weapons, we are not alone! You are being watched to make sure you comply!" something to let those on the ground know that there and hostiles close by to see if they are complying or not.

I just think Random statements of "Everyone below drop your weapons now" without them being able to see who is specifically down below is nothing more then them saying "Come on we're here for a gunfight and to kill anyone we want cause we're safe up here and I made the demand so now I have KOS rights and anyone I say so can share them cause we're allies."

This is becoming a BIG problem as I myself have enjoyed many an RP session up on Green Mountain and hate it all destroyed by those simply looking for a stand off. It shows in more then one video evidence those in the tower having equipped their inventories with nothing but supplies to last a long siege and it seems to be the same people over and over again.

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Hmm I myself have no experience in-game but i can see why this could be a major problem. Essentially, in my opinion, in real life this would be a great spot to scout if you're part of a bigger group but if you are alone it would be an unwise decision to go up there.

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This leans to be more than a discussion of opinion rather than a question that has any sort of finite answer to it, the question itself relies on a situational example, some of the time an initiation can be carried out in a smart, effective way via the high ground, especially with companions to help the process on the ground. On the flip side however, it can entirely be the opposite point, bad RP and bad planning make it a very power-played attempt at making sure no one can get to the initiator without dying, that itself would be a rule break, which in part of your explanation it seems to be.

My advice to you is to record or screen capture during these events if you think something is being done poorly/wrong, gather evidence and either make a discussion or report based on what you feel is most appropriate, this type of thing can be done right, but from what I'm understanding it hasn't been. I think with that you've been given enough general opinions and answers to warrant this as solved, though I could have a moderator move this to general discussion if you'd like to just get some more opinions on the matter.

A short and more exact answer to the question of the subject line; No, this' not the right way to do it if it's a lone gunman. Though it can depend based off of how it's carried out and what's done.

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I would be fine with moving it to general discussion since it would seem community members are interested in giving their opinions on the matter.

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If your gunman's just snapped and gone crazy it could prove interesting. I pictured the event in my head as him yelling commands, breaking down and throwing himself off the top. Probably what I'd do :)

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/Moving to General Discussion as requested by op

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I cannot stand this tactic to be honest.

People who use this tactic do it knowing there is an advantage, add a couple dynamic group members lurking around and you have a license to kill.

Everyone knows that someone is not going to comply or comply quick enough due to confusion. Also a lot of times what happens is that people pause and try and figure out who the hell is initiating and on whom while becoming free targets if people choose to Ruleplay>Roleplay.

Cheers

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Personally, I haven't had a problem with it. I believe it brings the true nature of DayZ: You cannot trust anyone. As long as you can hear the initiation & give substantial time to comply to the demand, then I don't see anything wrong with it. You should assume, they have allies, prepare for the worst in a hostile situations.

I've seen people go to GM carrying valuable trading goods and walking & talking in the ocean with no realistic fear that they could be attacked at any moment by either infected or bandits.

Something I have never understood in all my time here is ... people know what happens in GM, it usually ends up in a firefight, or some such, yet people continue to go up there... what is the reason for this. Whenever I have gone up to GM, I make sure to stay in the compound to be safe in case a hostile attack breaks out. Also you really can't say it is Bad RP if you do not comply, that's on you.

It is a legitimate tactic IMO. In a realistic situation, the people who may be hidden among the crowd don't need to have evil capes to show their bad.

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What happens at GM? The violence and hostilities that happens at GM can be had anywhere in the game if the wrong people are involved.

Why do people go to GM? It's the largest identifiable landmark on the map seen for miles away and an excellent meeting point also the location for many positive RP experiences in the past as well as having very limited zombies in the area.

If everyone were to walk around in fear of attack at any moment as you suggest then we would all hide and no one would have any interaction.

And finally hearing an initiation is very vague. For example if your in a city and hear it but don't see it your never sure if it's on you or the guy around the corner or inside another building, how can you be sure it's on you unless someone is looking directly at you or identified you in some way such as "you in the purple jacket.."

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It's valid... unfair but valid.

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Guest

Wait, what's stopping you from just running away?

being shot in the back of the head by the man in the tower or one of his friends on ground level near to you?

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Wait, what's stopping you from just running away?

being shot in the back of the head by the man in the tower or one of his friends on ground level near to you?

Either you have really good aim to shoot someone in the head from GM, or you don't know how to zig-zag out of a situation.

Also the OT States that it's just one man in the top of the tower.

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It is completely valid. However if you are doing a group initiation as such, you are to use text rp so that everyone can see that they are being initiated on. You of course as the occupants don't necessarily need to cooperate, and you can at anytime attempt to take revenge on them. However, if they have someone hidden inside waiting for the call sign, many people can find themselves dead for not cooperating.

This happened to me at GM. We all refused due to mob mentality, not to mention we all had assault rifles. Since there was fifteen or more of us, we fired out, refusing. They gave us the opportunity to surrender for five to seven minutes, and when we didn't cooperate a mole proceeded to spray the first floor after shooting me in the back.

With such a clever tactic, they can outwit a large group who become enraged.

I hope this answers your question.

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It is completely valid. However if you are doing a group initiation as such, you are to use text rp so that everyone can see that they are being initiated on. You of course as the occupants don't necessarily need to cooperate, and you can at anytime attempt to take revenge on them. However, if they have someone hidden inside waiting for the call sign, many people can find themselves dead for not cooperating.

This happened to me at GM. We all refused due to mob mentality, not to mention we all had assault rifles. Since there was fifteen or more of us, we fired out, refusing. They gave us the opportunity to surrender for five to seven minutes, and when we didn't cooperate a mole proceeded to spray the first floor after shooting me in the back.

With such a clever tactic, they can outwit a large group who become enraged.

I hope this answers your question.

Honestly that can almost be seen as baiting in my opinion. Look at it this way.

A group of friends are in TS and plan to go have some "fun" up at GM. Two of the friends show up first and pretend to be friendly. After they succeed to blend into the crowd the third friend shows up and runs straight up the tower. He then initiates on the compound with no real way to control the people on the ground knowing that people will likely not comply. Once he has given time for them to comply with no warning his two allies open fire on the whole compound and kill everyone. This is not good RP. It's basically a group of people deceiving others so that they can gain KOS rights and fill their blood lust.

Just another way to think of it.

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AS the rules are currently written we have to accept that going into the tower and yelling down without being able to see who is there is considered a valid initiation.

Those in the tower have to also take into consideration and use their so called 'moles' to feed them information on what is occurring below, however tiny details can always be missed and lead to major misunderstandings and a lot of bitterness.

I would like to make the following suggestions to those who initiate in the tower:

Try to remember you need a valid reason to initiate, stating you feared for your life is kind of putting the cart before the horse and the majority of the time there is no danger until you initiate even then people are very willing to negotiate for fear of death.

Many times arguments are already in progress before an initiation is thrown down and by this time a LOT of people have begun to tune it out not wanting to be involved or cannot hear an initiation due to the volume level or those around them thus you state it in text to but stating it once in text may not be enough although it does cover you in case of confusion as proof of initiation. If you truly do not want to end up having a blood bath, please make sure you repeat it a couple of times as there are a lot of people who are so used to using voice hardly ever look at the text box or ignore it completely. Repeat it in text it will help them notice it and give them the opportunity to comply, this also gives the added benefit of covering anyone who is new to the situation as those on the ground cannot keep an eye on everyone at all times and still maintain being unidentified.

Those on the ground have to remember that not all people have been through a situation like this and are bound to do something wrong, for example: They may accidently pull out a weapon when they truly intended to drop it, we are real people at the keyboards and it is easy to mess up, don't use it as an excuse to shoot, your unidentified there is no reason to start shooting yet. (I thank the person of my first initiation for having the patience and experience not to have killed me when I accidently pulled out my axe instead of dropping it on the ground and did not shoot me immediately)

I feel that if such simple things like that could be taken it would avoid a lot of grief, improve role play, and reduce the amounts of reports being made during one of these events. I am sure there are more ideas out there on how it can be turned from a negative to a positive in better RP and Less violence, death and misunderstandings.

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Guest Doug Quade

Just my opinion here, but this is a classic, ruleplay over roleplay scenario. Yes it is legal, weak tactic, and in the case of crappy VOIP comms, tough to hear someone from up there. Make the RP interesting as opposed to, well it is technically allowed so I can get away with it crap. This is a huge gripe that many of the vets of this community are having with Ruleplay>Roleplay..... It should be the other way around.

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Guest Jeff

It is a legit initiation.

RP wise its pretty poor, but you hopefully have to just comply and see where the initiators go with it. If you decided  to fight back, do not expect RP in return.

+1. Typically its pretty bad roleplay wise. Unless you're me. ;) now this is crazy sounding but. *Gasp* Some people as long as it helps rp. complies despite the loss of say... an m4 or a smersh vest. Rp > Gear. Now.. If you don't want to comply then you'll get a bullet. Not roleplay. Now is this enjoyable rp? Usually not.. Is it NOT rp? No. its rp. sorry. :/

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Guest Jeff

What happens at GM? The violence and hostilities that happens at GM can be had anywhere in the game if the wrong people are involved.

Why do people go to GM? It's the largest identifiable landmark on the map seen for miles away and an excellent meeting point also the location for many positive RP experiences in the past as well as having very limited zombies in the area.

If everyone were to walk around in fear of attack at any moment as you suggest then we would all hide and no one would have any interaction.

And finally hearing an initiation is very vague. For example if your in a city and hear it but don't see it your never sure if it's on you or the guy around the corner or inside another building, how can you be sure it's on you unless someone is looking directly at you or identified you in some way such as "you in the purple jacket.."

Truly. Green mountain as i've seen it is normal Dayz... Now S2.. s2 is just a fuck fest of reports and kos. Stick with s1-s3-s4. Typically the good roleplayers and groups stick there. (s1 mostly) GM on S1 is actually a enjoyable experiences. But s2 gm.. It's just "Okay everyone. Drop the weapons. ... .. . . Or be shot because we can. *you are dead* And there's your roleplay. Or. "Drop everything you have in 10 seconds or die" ... Or my personal worst. Just being shot out of no where. (Hasn't happened to me yet but yeah.)

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