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Jackson L

I'm not sure how I feel about this...

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Jackson L    0

I killed a guy yesterday and I feel kinda mixed about it. I was playing in S3 and was in the tents. A guy approached the entrance to the tent and stood there, gun glitching. Now, I couldn't tell if his weapon was raised due to the gun glitch, but I do know that you can only gun glitch while a gun is in your hand. I said something along the lines of "Holy shit man, you scared me!" to which he replied "Can you please put your hands up." I said "Uhhhh, no," raised my pistol and shot him.

Now, I feel like this was bad RP on my part, but at the same time, asking me to put my hands up instantly screams robbery. Knowing I had a chance to live with everything I had, I took it. For some reason, I feel like it was a dirty kill on my part, but justified at the same time.

His buddy ended up killing me after I fled, but whatever.

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Krackerman    17

Hey - the dude said please - I'd have gone along with it just for the novelty of a polite and erudite bandit...

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I'm afraid that qualifies as a KOS.

First, while he did ask you to put your hands up, he asked you, he didn't order it.

Second, not only did he ask you, he did so in a polite, non-hostile manner (unless you interpret "please" as hostile.)

You had no justification to shoot him at that point, as what he did doesn't qualify as a hostile act.

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   62

What was his name? He might be involved in a report and is not answering. Really sounds like that guy who KoSed me.

And yeah Lucia is right. It should not be allowed to shoot someone when he just asks politely "Put your hands up please". Only OOC you think "Oh hes going to rob me", instead of thinking IC, " Whats with this guy?" And starting to RP with him.. But you shot the roleplay kind of dead.

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J.D.    2

When people say only say "Put your hands up". My response is "For Detroit?" and RP as if they were singing the song lol

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I'm afraid that qualifies as a KOS.

First, while he did ask you to put your hands up, he asked you, he didn't order it.

Second, not only did he ask you, he did so in a polite, non-hostile manner (unless you interpret "please" as hostile.)

You had no justification to shoot him at that point, as what he did doesn't qualify as a hostile act.

First, this would be considered RDM and not KOS because there was an exchange of words. Second, you are always using semantics to discuss these topics. Just because he asked and did not order does not mean it is not an initiation. "Can you please put your hands up" and "Can you please put AWAY your weapon" are totally different scenarios. The first words out of anyone's mouth should not be, "Can you please put your hands up". In RL this is a direct threat of a robbery, no matter how nicely they ask. If you can think of any logical reason for someone's first sentence to be, "Can you please put your hands up" and not intend to initiate, please let me know.


What was his name? He might be involved in a report and is not answering. Really sounds like that guy who KoSed me.

And yeah Lucia is right. It should not be allowed to shoot someone when he just asks politely "Put your hands up please". Only OOC you think "Oh hes going to rob me", instead of thinking IC, " Whats with this guy?" And starting to RP with him.. But you shot the roleplay kind of dead.

I am sorry but as a person that has been places, and seen thing my first instinct OOC/IR is "I am about to get robbed."

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Foxxycurr    0

Would have to agree with Whiskey. From an RP stand point, you're putting yourself in the shoes of your character. It's very understandable to shoot someone as a first reaction almost when they sneak up on you with a gun raised. It's almost like a fight or flight reaction. The bandit, in my opinion, should have announced his presence more to get more RP and talking in before any bullets fly. You know, before he's a few feet in front of his potential victim, without any cover.

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Jackson L    0

I'm afraid that qualifies as a KOS.

First, while he did ask you to put your hands up, he asked you, he didn't order it.

Second, not only did he ask you, he did so in a polite, non-hostile manner (unless you interpret "please" as hostile.)

You had no justification to shoot him at that point, as what he did doesn't qualify as a hostile act.

I don't interpret "please" to be hostile, but I do interperet being asked to put my hands up, thus rendering me unable to defend myself, as hostile. In which case, I feared for my life.

What was his name? He might be involved in a report and is not answering. Really sounds like that guy who KoSed me.

And yeah Lucia is right. It should not be allowed to shoot someone when he just asks politely "Put your hands up please". Only OOC you think "Oh hes going to rob me", instead of thinking IC, " Whats with this guy?" And starting to RP with him.. But you shot the roleplay kind of dead.

I didn't catch his name. IC or OOC, I think every single person on the planet would assume that if someone other than a law enforcement officer asks you to put your hands up, then their intent is probably malicious.

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Second, you are always using semantics to discuss these topics. Just because he asked and did not order does not mean it is not an initiation. "Can you please put your hands up" and "Can you please put AWAY your weapon" are totally different scenarios. The first words out of anyone's mouth should not be, "Can you please put your hands up". In RL this is a direct threat of a robbery, no matter how nicely they ask. If you can think of any logical reason for someone's first sentence to be, "Can you please put your hands up" and not intend to initiate, please let me know.

Would you like me to show you in the rules where politely asking someone to put their hands up doesn't qualify as an initiation and, thus, does not grant KOS rights? I can do that. I can show you exactly in the rules where it doesn't, if you really want me to.


I am sorry but as a person that has been places, and seen thing my first instinct OOC/IR is I am about to get robbed.

Well, whatever your real life or OOC instincts may be, the rules on this server dictate when you can and cannot shoot someone, and politely asking someone to put their hands up does not grant KOS rights.

Honestly, it sounds to me as if you're not very clear on when you can and cannot shoot people here on DayZRP, namely by implying that this was a legitimate kill.

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Krackerman    17

Guys if we go down the path of shooting everyone who says "stick your hands in the air" then the bandits will simply shoot first and rob your corpse and claim you initiated on them.

Nobody should be getting shot - have I missed the point of this server or is it not to RP?

Dead people can't RP...

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-snip-

Whether or not you felt threatened or suspected him of planning to rob you, you're not allowed to kill someone simply because of what you suspect they might be planning. There was no hostile act, so regardless of your suspicion, you weren't permitted to shoot him.

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-snip-

Would you like me to show you in the rules where politely asking someone to put their hands up doesn't qualify as an initiation and, thus, does not grant KOS rights? I can do that. I can show you exactly in the rules where it doesn't, if you really want me to.


-snip-

Well, whatever your real life or OOC instincts may be, the rules on this server dictate when you can and cannot shoot someone, and politely asking someone to put their hands up does not grant KOS rights.

Honestly, it sounds to me as if you're not very clear on when you can and cannot shoot people here on DayZRP, namely by implying that this was a legitimate kill.

Feel free to show me in the rules where politely asking someone to put their hands up doesn't qualify as an initiation. No semantics or your own interpretations of the rules though.

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Jackson L    0

So next time I decide to rob somebody, as long as I ask politely and say please then I'll be safe? Is that what you're getting at?

Yeah, he might not have robbed me. But his RP was shit and his intentions were not clear. Now, we can give the guy the benefit of the doubt that he wanted to supply me with beans, but let's be real... had he RP'd AT ALL, then things would've been different.

IC or OOC, asking to put your hands up is only a question you should be asked (or demanded) by a law enforcement officer. IC or OOC, in game or real life, if someone asked you to put your hands up, would you really believe they had a good intention?

I'm not saying my kill was good. I don't think it was. But I do know that his actions led to me defending myself from what I thought would be a bad experience for my character.

EDIT: I've been robbed IC, a couple times, and both of those times I was asked to put my hands up. So IC, I've experienced this before and, thus, I know what that question leads to.

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Feel free to show me in the rules where politely asking someone to put their hands up doesn't qualify as an initiation. No semantics or your own interpretations of the rules though. I will be waiting.

Wow, you actually went there. Okay.

The rules make it clear what a hostile act is:

You have to make contact with the target before initiating a hostile action against it. You must make your hostile intention clear and unambiguous and state each demand before you can harm the victim(s) for non-compliance.

That is how a hostile act is defined. The person that got shot did not make any demands, did not make any clear and unambiguous hostile intentions, and stated no demands. Asking someone to "please put your hands up" is not a demand, and is not hostile. No hostile action was taken against the shooter, so he had no right to shoot.

If the guy had pointed his gun in the shooter's face and said "Put your hands up now!" or "Hands up or I'll shoot!" it would be different. Because of the animation glitch, we don't even know if the victim was aiming his gun or had it lowered.

The shooter chose to shoot the guy in the face rather than even attempting to engage in roleplay.


EDIT: I've been robbed IC, a couple times, and both of those times I was asked to put my hands up. So IC, I've experienced this before and, thus, I know what that question leads to.

As I stated before, you're not allowed to shoot someone because of what you suspect they might be planning to do. You're not allowed to fire on someone just because you think they might be intending to rob you.

Likewise, if you had refused to put your hands up, he would not have been allowed to shoot you for non-compliance, because he stated it as a request, not a demand, and showed no hostility.

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-snip-

Wow, you actually went there. Okay.

The rules make it clear what a hostile act is:

You have to make contact with the target before initiating a hostile action against it. You must make your hostile intention clear and unambiguous and state each demand before you can harm the victim(s) for non-compliance.

That is how a hostile act is defined. The person that got shot did not make any demands, did not make any clear and unambiguous hostile intentions, and stated no demands. Asking someone to "please put your hands up" is not a demand, and is not hostile. No hostile action was taken against the shooter, so he had no right to shoot.

If the guy had pointed his gun in the shooter's face and said "Put your hands up now!" or "Hands up or I'll shoot!" it would be different. Because of the animation glitch, we don't even know if the victim was aiming his gun or had it lowered.

The shooter chose to shoot the guy in the face rather than even attempting to engage in roleplay.

Yes this rule explains what an initiator must do, but says nothing about a how the initiated must act. For example, in this case if the initiated ran, for fear of his life, would the initiator be able to shoot. In your interpretation of the rule there was no initiation to begin with. Don't you think if the initiated feel threaten they can spare their life? I understand where one could think there was not a hostile intentions in this case, but it can also be looked out in another light. This story is two fold because of the glitch that the initiator was experiencing.

I am sorry, but if I am cornered in a tent, a man enters with a weapon out, and tells me to put my hands up (Disarming me), I am going to feel threatened. No matter if he stated please or not.

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King Box    0

have to agree with whiskey, in fact this is something i have been pondering about for a while, and have come to the decision that if someone tell me to put my hands up, drop my gun, drop my clothes, etc. i will open fire, its commonsense both OOC and IC, after all it is the apocalypse. i mean like do you honestly think in such a dark time you should be like "Sure dude i'll put my hands up!". no, you would shoot him, or run away. what do you think i/ the initiated should do? say "no put your hands up" or "i'm going to ask you to put your gun down or i will fire"? saying this would cause the initiator to fire because you didn't comply most likely.

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Hey, you're welcome to feel however you like. I'm just pointing out how the rules on this server work.

Neither of the two people in that situation had the right to fire. If the OP had refused to put his hands up, the other guy wouldn't have had the right to shoot him, either.

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Valkerion    0

The rules make it clear what a hostile act is:

You have to make contact with the target before initiating a hostile action against it. You must make your hostile intention clear and unambiguous and state each demand before you can harm the victim(s) for non-compliance.

That is how a hostile act is defined. The person that got shot did not make any demands, did not make any clear and unambiguous hostile intentions, and stated no demands. Asking someone to "please put your hands up" is not a demand, and is not hostile. No hostile action was taken against the shooter, so he had no right to shoot.

You say no demand was made...

is "put your hands up" not a demand? just because he said please does not remove the fact he is asking/demanding you to put yourself into a position that leaves you defenseless and able to be easily restrained/searched whilst he moves about freely about his business.

Why would you need to ask that of someone unless you were planning to either make them defenseless or restrain/search them? both of which i wouldn't exactly consider friendly especially when the guy also has a firearm.

you can use the argument that the police do it in real life but that is exactly the reason they do it to make you defenseless and easily searchable anything that removes your free will or makes you defenseless is considered hostile on DayZRP and grounds to defend yourself did OP have to shoot him? no but i can fully understand why he did.

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Zero    463

Second, you are always using semantics to discuss these topics. Just because he asked and did not order does not mean it is not an initiation. "Can you please put your hands up" and "Can you please put AWAY your weapon" are totally different scenarios. The first words out of anyone's mouth should not be, "Can you please put your hands up". In RL this is a direct threat of a robbery, no matter how nicely they ask. If you can think of any logical reason for someone's first sentence to be, "Can you please put your hands up" and not intend to initiate, please let me know.

Would you like me to show you in the rules where politely asking someone to put their hands up doesn't qualify as an initiation and, thus, does not grant KOS rights? I can do that. I can show you exactly in the rules where it doesn't, if you really want me to.


I am sorry but as a person that has been places, and seen thing my first instinct OOC/IR is I am about to get robbed.

Well, whatever your real life or OOC instincts may be, the rules on this server dictate when you can and cannot shoot someone, and politely asking someone to put their hands up does not grant KOS rights.

Honestly, it sounds to me as if you're not very clear on when you can and cannot shoot people here on DayZRP, namely by implying that this was a legitimate kill.

Wait, isn't that what you called RULEPLAY, in another thread? Just curious, not trying to start an argument. Ever hear of a polite highwayman? It's happened a few times. We all know what most likely would have conspired. Guy tells him to put his hands up, doesn't comply, shoots him anyways and comes on here and says that the rules state he technically followed the rules because he 'asked' for him to put his hands up and he didn't comply. It's a dodgy situation.

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I had something similar happen. PLZ DONT BAN ME FOR THIS BEFORE I GO FURTHER. I was at Otmel being handsome, looting the police station and over all just looking super cool right. This guy comes down the road, with no clothes I may add, and says ok drop the guns now dont raise your weapon. In response I drop my Mosin. But then I pull out my AKM and gun him down is this a KOS? I mean technicaly he initiated on me right but i dont know it felt wrong after I did it.


I had something similar happen. PLZ DONT BAN ME FOR THIS BEFORE I GO FURTHER. I was at Otmel being handsome, looting the police station and over all just looking super cool right. This guy comes down the road, with no clothes I may add, and says ok drop the guns now dont raise your weapon. In response I drop my Mosin. But then I pull out my AKM and gun him down is this a KOS? I mean technicaly he initiated on me right but i dont know it felt wrong after I did it.

Im pretty sure it was legit though but he lowered his crossbow and walked forward to take mine not sure if im allowed to shoot him after i start complying

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Wait, isn't that what you called RULEPLAY, in another thread? Just curious, not trying to start an argument.

That's backwards. Ruleplay is when you choose to do something that circumvents roleplay because you're technically allowed to via the rules. Because he didn't even have a right to shoot the victim, this wasn't even ruleplay. It was just RDM.

Ruleplay over roleplay, in the instance I was citing, is when you technically have KOS rights on someone that's trying to roleplay with you, and you just kill them without attempting any RP.

Ever hear of a polite highwayman? It's happened a few times. We all know what most likely would have conspired.

Okay, honestly, I am kind of tired of repeating myself, but I will again:

You cannot kill someone because of what you suspect them of planning!

You're not allowed to shoot someone because you think they're about to rob you. They have to take a hostile act against you, and the hostility, along with the demands, have to be clear and unambiguous!

Was he about to rob the guy? Yeah, probably. So what? He hadn't taken any hostile actions (as defined by the server's rules) yet, so it was not legal to shoot him.

If I see a group of people stalking me through a city, following me everywhere I go, and then they suddenly surround me and approach, I'm not allowed to open fire on them just because it's blatantly obvious that they're about to rob me. I am still required to wait until they perform a clear and unambiguous act of hostility against me.

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Valkerion    0

If I see a group of people stalking me through a city, following me everywhere I go, and then they suddenly surround me and approach, I'm not allowed to open fire on them just because it's blatantly obvious that they're about to rob me. I am still required to wait until they perform a clear and unambiguous act of hostility against me.

its funny that you used such an example because not too long ago you actually were allowed to do that.

If you made it clear to people you didnt want them following you and they kept doing it you could turn around and kill them you didnt even have to say you would harm/stop them either.

also one could argue that being asked however to politely is to put your hands up is infact not planning its actually doing the action actually asking someone to put themselves in a defenseless position with their hands up is no longer assuming its actually happening how would you feel in real life if someone that wasnt a police officer just came up to you and asked you to put yourself in a defenseless position like such?

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lucia whats your position on my event?

if you dont mind me asking?

You mean where a naked man ordered you to drop your weapons and you opened fire on him?

Dropping your weapons is, and always has been, a more hostile statement than simply telling people to put their hands up. Plus, he didn't ask you to do it, he demanded that you do it. However, he didn't state any consequences for your actions, nor did he have any means to harm you if he really was naked.

That would go nowhere. If he reported you, he'd probably get smacked with either bad RP or NVFL, or both, for trying to "rob" you while naked. The staff would probably side with you since ordering someone to drop a weapon on the ground is usually considered just hostile enough to warrant KOS rights, but you'd probably receive a verbal warning for not even attempting to RP with him.


also one could argue that being asked however to politely is to put your hands up is infact not planning its actually doing the action actually asking someone to put themselves in a defenseless position with their hands up is no longer assuming its actually happening how would you feel in real life if someone that wasnt a police officer just came up to you and asked you to put yourself in a defenseless position like such?

Police officers order you to put your hands up, they don't ask, and once you do, they then handcuff you, detain you, question you, etc. That sort of stuff would be very good as RP material on this server, but trying to compare real life to the ruleset on DayZRP isn't very logical. After all, in real life, there is no initiation rule, no KOS rule, no RDM rule. You can blow someone's head off the second you spot them in a world without laws and you're fine.

However, we have rules here intended to foster roleplay, so putting a bullet in someone's face the second you suspect them of being a threat isn't tolerated.

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