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Vaine

Increase the punishment for meta gaming

Increase meta gaming punishment to try rid it off the server  

44 members have voted

  1. 1. Increase meta gaming punishment to try rid it off the server



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Vaine    23

I along with many others are struggling with the amount of meta gaming that is happening on the servers.

I can say that my entire time in this community I have never witnessed meta gaming this bad and common.

I will take the pop and say it is a large amount due to new member's of the community.

Don't take this the wrong way as without them our servers would be quiet (more new names than old ones nowadays).Not saying new folks are 'bad' for RP as iv had a good bunch of 'noobies' to dayzrp join Blackwood

I am now finding it pointless grilling people who do it as majority of them don't realise the effect it can have. Someone may state 'well it's in the rules they read'.

Let's face it , at least half the folks whitelisting 'skim' the rules, enough to pass our whitelist.

Anyways I'm not claiming its just the new guys , some old do it also.. Non the less i think we need to enforce it more so as to weed out the current meta gaming.

To do this obviously more people need to report it when it happens , rather than brush it under the rug... It solves nothing as the 'lopatino' incident showed. It led to 2 players being perma death'd although they infact still play (yes this is power gaming , but due to a post on the forums this rumour went viral) leaving said players the awkward RP when someone says 'you died'

I would also like to suggest increasing the meta gaming punishment from its basic 3 day ban.Way I look at it is bigger the punishment less chance you will do it again

I myself feel unless we get on top of it then it will carry on if not get worse.

I myself at this time feel meta gaming ruins my RP more than being KOS'd

Would like some opinions on if people agree it may be wise to increase the punishment and start squashing this out of the community

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I agree with you, but you must understand that metagaming is one of the most difficult things for new roleplayers to manage. It's a very nebulous, almost philosophical concept when you consider just how often we act in ways that amount to metagaming.

Also, sometimes metagaming is simply necessary. I routinely have to vault at the top of stairs or in buildings to reset my collision box, something I have no explanation for in-character.

For new roleplayers, separating these instances of required metagaming to work around game limitations from instances of bad metagaming can be difficult. However, the people that blatantly treat this like a game IC at all times are another matter entirely.

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Guest Phalix   
Guest Phalix

I agree with you, but you must understand that metagaming is one of the most difficult things for new roleplayers to manage. It's a very nebulous, almost philosophical concept when you consider just how often we act in ways that amount to metagaming.

so "they're new, don't yell at them" yeah, they're new. so they should have the rules fresh in their mind.

Also, sometimes metagaming is simply necessary. I routinely have to vault at the top of stairs or in buildings to reset my collision box, something I have no explanation for in-character.

"oh i tripped" there. an excuse to randomly vault

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Vaine    23

Maybe misunderstanding you here but what is you vaulting to fix a game issue got to do with meta gaming ? :P

Might be a wtf moment if someone's watching but don't see how it fits in with meta gaming

Frankly this is my point

The 'they are new' excuse doesn't cut it. This is an old community, rules have been in place for a long time. It is only fair they learn them fast rather than be over-protective of them.

Iv explained many rules to new folks applying to my group as they didn't grasp the concept of the rules. I'm glad I could correct them but this isn't always the case which is why I think the bet way to learn is the same way as a child... You do something wrong you get a slap on the arse. Won't do it again

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Maybe misunderstanding you here but what is you vaulting to fix a game issue got to do with meta gaming ? :P

Might be a wtf moment if someone's watching but don't see how it fits in with meta gaming

Metagaming is any action your character takes because you're playing a game. I'm vaulting to fix a glitch in the game. My character has absolutely no reason to vault, but it's something I have to do to loot things or avoid magical leg breaking damage.

It's not a case of punishable metagaming because it's necessary to play in some cases. That's my point. There are times when we're required to metagame a little bit just to cope with the game's limitations.

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DinoB    20

For me metagaming is as bad as KOS and RDM. And it is true what you are saying, it is because of the new members, and how they "skim" through the rules just enough to get whitelisted.

I purposed this some time ago but it looked like none of the staff really cared, or couldn't be assed doing it.

I am going to repeat myself again, and this time hopefully, I can get a response from someone.

We need after-whitelist interviews. Basically after a person is whitelisted, they should join Team Speak and wait for an available staff member to do an interview. The interview would consist of the interviewer (staff member of any rank), asking the new joined member basic questions about the lore and rules. If the person fails to answer these questions, their whitelist gets denied. Alright sure, they can have more shots at it, if they fail they can reapply for interview in the next few weeks.

Some of you might say "Oh but that is too much work for the staff"

No it's not, it's the staffs duty to make this community better for other players, even if it means spending their time on interviews.

So how do we do this? Loads of new people applying, therefor loads of interviews! I'd suggest the admins recruit people who are willing to spend their time on the community, and help the community out. So people would apply for staff team, we could get loads of new CH-s, or maybe make a new staff rank like "interviewer" or something like that.

Yes, I understand it is a lot of work, but if we work together, we can make this work out.

I got this idea from an another community that I am not going name here. They have a teamspeak room which is called "Waiting for interview", we should do the same, and everytime a free staff member sees people waiting in that room, they should join, and pick a person to interview. So obviously we would need some rules for this. Since I know staff does not have too much time on their hands, make the people wait, if they truly want to get into the community, they will wait, even if it takes up to a few days. A rule would be that if the person is caught cheating, example: reading the rules during the interview, they get blacklisted. The staff can check that by listening to see if the person is actually reading of something, OR checking on the forum and seeing if the person who is getting whitelisted is online, reading, then tell the person to go offline untill the interview is over.

I already said this before, yeah it will be a lot of work, but I guarantee, there are people who are willing to do this.

This is all I got for now, a response would be great.

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Guest Phalix   
Guest Phalix

well; to fix it is probably just to go asshole mode and report every single case of it.

honestly, people who metagame like that probably don't read the forums, so this won't do anything

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Some of you might say "Oh but that is too much work for the staff"

No it's not, it's the staffs duty to make this community better for other players, even if it means spending their time on interviews.

Yes, I understand it is a lot of work, but if we work together, we can make this work out.

Uh, didn't Rolle say somewhere that we received over 2100 applications in the last month alone? It's more than a "lot" of work, it's a metric shit-ton of work.

That being said, I agree that post-whitelist interviews would be nice, I'm just not sure we've got the staff on-hand to manage that given the number of players we get applying to the community every day. Not to mention adding that process would dramatically slow down the already-slow application process.

Then again, we do have enough players as it is, and if that process would reduce the rate of KOS and metagaming infractions, I'd be in favor of it.

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Vaine    23

Maybe misunderstanding you here but what is you vaulting to fix a game issue got to do with meta gaming ? :P

Might be a wtf moment if someone's watching but don't see how it fits in with meta gaming

Metagaming is any action your character takes because you're playing a game. I'm vaulting to fix a glitch in the game. My character has absolutely no reason to vault, but it's something I have to do to loot things or avoid magical leg breaking damage.

It's not a case of punishable metagaming because it's necessary to play in some cases. That's my point. There are times when we're required to metagame a little bit just to cope with the game's limitations.

You and me have different opinions of what meta gaming is.

What your describing is game glitches , in which you need to do something sometimes odd to fix

Meta gaming is alone for me someone that uses OOC information ingame (something their character has no knowledge of).for example:

I meet a fella he is a text RP'er . He says hello... The game text says 'joe Blackwood: hello' , I then reply calling him joe ... Although he has not told me his name.

Another example is meeting someone for the first time with no history of my group and says ' your Blackwood militia , you captured Johnny Norway (they watched it in a stream or read it on forums) .... It is both meta gaming

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DinoB    20

Some of you might say "Oh but that is too much work for the staff"

No it's not, it's the staffs duty to make this community better for other players, even if it means spending their time on interviews.

Yes, I understand it is a lot of work, but if we work together, we can make this work out.

Uh, didn't Rolle say somewhere that we received over 2100 applications in the last month alone? It's more than a "lot" of work, it's a metric shit-ton of work.

That being said, I agree that post-whitelist interviews would be nice, I'm just not sure we've got the staff on-hand to manage that given the number of players we get applying to the community every day. Not to mention adding that process would dramatically slow down the already-slow application process.

Then again, we do have enough players as it is, and if that process would reduce the rate of KOS and metagaming infractions, I'd be in favor of it.

Yes, I understand, but not all of the applications get accepted though. I agree the process would be longer than usual, but I'm hoping when logs arrive, the metagaming and the rest of the rule breaks, will lower, but if it doesn't then my idea should be put in use.

These interviews would not take too long, and if Rolle did, so to say some "mass staff recruiting", it would make the process easier and faster. New pairs of "eyes and ears" would help out the current staff. And we won't be getting 2100 new applications every day, it will slowly die off with time.

EDIT: I know some people think I am trying to get staff, and that this is my way of doing it, they are wrong. I will admit it sure does seem like I am doing it, but I am not. For all I care, I could do the interviews even if I am not staff, if it means a better community with less "nobs" then sure.

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You and me have different opinions of what meta gaming is.

Well, I'm using the universally accepted definition.

Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself.

What your describing is game glitches , in which you need to do something sometimes odd to fix

I described the glitch, yes, and I pointed out that the act of fixing those glitches sometimes requires you to take actions that are, only at their most technical level, metagaming.

Meta gaming is alone for me someone that uses OOC information ingame

Correct. Vaulting to fix a glitch is your character suddenly hopping in the air to fix a glitch that doesn't actually exist in their in-character universe.

The examples you gave are also examples of metagaming. The only point I'm trying to make is that some types of metagaming are necessary, while others are against the rules.

The thing about DayZRP is that we're actually playing a game within a game. The roleplay is a game being played within DayZ.

Vaulting to fix a glitch is metagaming DayZ, which is necessary.

Knowing someone's name because they're in text chat is metagaming DayZRP, which is unnecessary and against the rules.

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Vaine    23

Added a poll on the thread for those who have opinion but dont wish to discuss it

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Chris    63

These interviews would not take too long, and if Rolle did, so to say some "mass staff recruiting", it would make the process easier and faster. New pairs of "eyes and ears" would help out the current staff.

A big part of being staff entails Rolle having faith in your ability to accurately and consistently represent the rules and guidelines of the community.

"Mass staff recruitment" will never happen, especially when the whitelist is at stake. How can you ensure quality control with no infrastructure in place to support it? People placed into that interviewer position could certainly ask questions off of a list, but would need to make quick decisions on the fly to process the answers given. The only ones that would be trusted to do that would be people who, in essence, also qualify to be in staff. I've seen the list of potential Community Helper recruits (back when I was in staff), it isn't very long. And that's just the CH level, where very little power is given. If someone isn't on that list, you can be damn sure they wouldn't be trusted with a task as important as this.

The whitelist is very, very important, and should be high priority on the list of 'things we need to optimize', but the above option is not feasible. I also fail to realize what a Teamspeak interview can accomplish that a written one cannot. Things like age cannot be accurately determined through voice. I find it amusing when people say, "Oh that guy is definitely not 16, 13 or 14 maybe." Voice ranges vary immensely, and cannot be used as proof of age. The only positive trait I can think of is that it causes people to think on the fly, but this can be negative as well, as some communicate more easily via text. Personally I do not like Teamspeak; I am a very introverted person and being in a chat with people makes me feel like a spotlight is on me at all times.

tl;dr I agree with your main contention: The whitelist needs to be an effective and efficient tool. I don't, however, agree that your suggestion is workable at this volume of applicants.


*Edit* Also sorry to the OP for going off topic so badly, but I felt compelled to respond to the above. As far as the OP topic goes, I can go both ways. Metagaming has always been tough to prove (within reasonable doubt) in reports. I think greater awareness can be spread through reporting and threads in the Guide section, personally. Always felt the more important part of the ban was the points, rather than the days; I might not even play in the next 5 days, but I'm sure to play sometime in the next month, and if I get more points within that month I can reach 30 and get banned.

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Volke    131

I'm not sure where I feel with this....

I feel that the metagaming punishment should be increased.

However, I understand it is a tough concept to grasp, it's not like KOS , or RDM, to be able to differentiate between IC & OOC is a difficult task for those who are new usually. So at the same time, I'm not sure how I feel about this. I voted yes simply because their is no not sure/doesn't matter choice.

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Tomeran    3

but you must understand that metagaming is one of the most difficult things for new roleplayers to manage. It's a very nebulous, almost philosophical concept when you consider just how often we act in ways that amount to metagaming.

Also, sometimes metagaming is simply necessary. I routinely have to vault at the top of stairs or in buildings to reset my collision box, something I have no explanation for in-character.

I cannot even begin to describe how much I agree with this.

Metagaming is bad and should be avoided, but not doing it at all is a matter of -mastering- roleplay to the point where it is almost impossible. I dare say just about everyone in the community has metagamed at some point, and while I can understand why people would want stronger punishments and rules against it, I think its important not to tip the balance and go too far.

It is a complex problem to adress and while its a good idea to try and educate people about it, since the more severe and obvious cases of it can be absolutly abhorrent to roleplay and immersion, it shouldnt be policed zealosly. I've seen "hardcore" roleplayers go about against people that have made tiny metagaming mistakes like they just commited mass-genocide.

Perhaps its a good idea to distinguish between non-essential "white collar" metagaming and "serious" metagaming, but frankly I think the staff already do that in their judgement. Or at least I hope so.

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Guest Phalix   
Guest Phalix

Would say 'player to player' Metagame be better?

Checking pulse to use names ICly

Reading text to get people's names

That type of stuff, attempting to live b/c of a glitch? That's just game mechanics messing up.

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Dougie    23

I honestly think that this idea is quite good... A lot of new players who are making their first steps into roleplaying generally don't fully understand the rule because they skim through the rules when applying, and after being accepted, they probably don't bother to look at guides like this one. I myself didn't really understand the rule very well until about 2 months into my time playing here which makes me inclined to think the whitelist should be harder, especially for metagaming, as many new players don't seem to grasp the concept of it, and the majority of the time their only knowledge is based off of the rules that they have to read to make an application. Maybe it could be a made a requirement to read some of the more in-depth guides, and add questions about them or something... I dunno, just an idea?

And with the example used by Lucia, I don't think anyone has an issue with players "metagaming" so they can avoid glitches in game, I think it has more to do with people who are taking info off of the forums and using it in game or using names from in game chat as vaine said. So your example doesn't really apply with what I think he is suggesting, I highly doubt anyone would report someone for vaulting to update their collision box, and even if they were it would never lead to any punishment.

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Well, as I touched upon earlier, DayZRP is actually a game within a game.

The roleplay itself is a game. We could just as easily take the same roleplay we have here and apply it to another game. Imagine if Rolle ran a private WoW server that had open PvP, but used the same rules. You have to initiate, you're not allowed to KOS, etc. The "DayZRP" ruleset is, itself, a game, which can be adapted to basically any other game.

Then, you have DayZ, which is the game we play DayZRP within. It's responsible for the visuals and for tracking many of the barriers that we orient our roleplay around.

I make those distinctions so that you can better understand: Metagaming in DayZ is sometimes necessary. Metagaming DayZRP, on the other hand, is not. It draws the distinction between something you're doing to overcome a shortcoming or limitation in DayZ vs. doing something that violates Rolle's roleplay ruleset.

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Vaine    23

*Edit* Also sorry to the OP for going off topic so badly, but I felt compelled to respond to the above. As far as the OP topic goes, I can go both ways. Metagaming has always been tough to prove (within reasonable doubt) in reports. I think greater awareness can be spread through reporting and threads in the Guide section, personally. Always felt the more important part of the ban was the points, rather than the days; I might not even play in the next 5 days, but I'm sure to play sometime in the next month, and if I get more points within that month I can reach 30 and get banned.

Don't worry about it :)

I see where your coming from. The punishment increase I'm getting at is not to try get people perma banned, far from it.

I feel myself that frankly if they got a 5-7day ban I'm pretty sure they wouldn't repeat the feat a second time and look into meta gaming as a rule more.

I know with your case it would not work if you only play in a blue moon.

But I do believe a time spent banned is a lot more effective than points.

Let's be honest unless you really are not 'suited' to be on dayzrp and get warning points for a power of shit , then warning points are .....well, not very 'scary'. If you get a warning (which effectively is nothing more than a verbal warning,it doesn't effect you at that time)you are less likely to go 'I need to improve on this' as you would getting banned for days not able to play.

Maybe I'm wrong this is just my view on it.

As I said I couldn't care about people getting perma banned, I'd rather people learn to adapt to the servers meta gaming rules.


Lucia this other type of metagaming your on about is not what I'm referring to with this thread. It is more targeted at using ooc information ingame. If we can stick with this

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Dougie    23

-snip-

Metagaming in DayZ is all fine and dandy, if you gotta do something with your character to keep him alive, or press f11 to make a splint that is okay in mine and pretty much everyone else's book, no one is going to report you for it, no staff is going to punish you for it because everyone does it at some point or another. Vaine is suggesting we up the punishment for DayZRP metagaming because as you said, it is against the rules...

I think we are agreeing here?

-Edit- Maybe even make the banned person have to answer some questions about metagaming(or whatever rule they broke) while they are serving the ban for it, and they stay banned until they answer that set of questions... Idk, just an idea.

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Metagaming in DayZ is all fine and dandy, if you gotta do something with your character to keep him alive, or press f11 to make a splint that is okay in mine and pretty much everyone else's book, no one is going to report you for it, no staff is going to punish you for it because everyone does it at some point or another. Vaine is suggesting we up the punishment for DayZRP metagaming because as you said, it is against the rules...

I think we are agreeing here?

Yeah, I think so. I know the kind of metagaming he's referring to, I just wanted to make it clear that the term metagaming itself actually has a few different applications in the world of gaming, so it's important that we ensure that members of the community, especially newcomers, understand which application specifically we're focusing on.

As Tomeran pointed out, too, we've seen people go completely apeshit over very minor infractions before, such as creating a report and trying to push it formal because someone accidentally slipped up and called them by name without having been told the name. Those sorts of infractions by themselves aren't report-worthy unless they lead to something more.

Personally, I think we should use a tiered punishment system for roleplay-specific offenses. For example, rather than saying "KOS is worth ten points, metagaming is worth fifteen, etc", each time you incur a punishment for the same infraction, the points you receive increase. So, for example, your first metagaming offense is 10 points, the second is 15, the third is 20, and so on. Mayne make them even steeper than that.

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Dougie    23

it's important that we ensure that members of the community, especially newcomers, understand which application specifically we're focusing on.

Ah alright, I understand what you are getting at, my apologies... I myself would never have considered metagaming to save yourself from a glitch as a rulebreak, but newer players could definitely get mixed up in it all...

your first metagaming offense is 10 points, the second is 15, the third is 20, and so on.

This would definitely promote players to take a few more looks at the rules and guides so they can understand the rule better and save themselves from piling on points. I feel that those players who don't want to take the short amount of time to read over a few guides so they can understand a rule better don't deserve to be here. So all in all this idea sounds good, and I wouldn't mind seeing it put in place.

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Vaine    23

I think you need to give credit to staff here tho lucia.

If someone goes formal on a minor thing I'm sure they would handle it at such. Probably a verbal for it , but punishment if it continues and other reports are filed.

Trust me i hate the idea of more reports... But I'm honestly out of idea's now.

Blackwood has tried to correct any meta gaming by ingame means. The odd //ooc . Majority of the time it's ignored.

We had one case where we tortured a guy breaking his legs and such while RPing to stop calling us 'blackwood' as we never mentioned or name.

I'm all outa ideas , this is the only other step in my eyes

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Guest neom   
Guest neom

They should increase all punishments then there would be less rule breaks all together

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Vaine    23

They should increase all punishments then there would be less rule breaks all together

well there is this :troll:

My main issue on the server which is damaging RP more than any other rule even KOS is the meta-gaming tho thats why iv decided to focus on this..

Least when your dead your dead.You might be pissed off sure.

but When someone meta-games some of the things iv seen it honestly just shuts the rp down .

Iv had guys give fake names to then have the person point blank say ''that is not your name your lying'' because they sniffed the name right out of you

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