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Server time (UTC): 2022-01-17 19:58

KoS rights while being robbed.


Caution

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Hey guys. I just wanted to clarify for myself, and anyone else who may have the same question.

I have been robbed at gun point several times now, which I'm sure is nothing surprising or odd.

But here's my situation/question (note I have not done this for fear of KoS rules being brought against me);

When someone approaches you, gun pointed at you and demands you put your weapons down, they have committed a hostile action against me and therefore if I wish to not comply and shoot them in the face I have full rights to do so? Now I understand that by not complying I have given them KoS rights as well, and in the time it takes me to pull out my gun, aim, and fire, they will have riddled me with bullets, if they have any. I ask mainly for those situations where someone is robbing another without ammo, they just have a gun. Can I shoot them, or otherwise take hostile actions against them since they have now tried to actively rob me at gun point, or is this against KoS rules as maybe they didn't specifically say "Drop your weapons or I shoot"?

Thank you for your help.

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  • MVP

Those people are taking a chance in trying to bluff, but they still initiated a hostile action in trying to rob you. You would still technically have your KoS rights, whether they have ammo or not. It's your option to try and call a bluff or comply. Are those situations rare? Yeah, very much so. I've only ever heard of one person doing it and it was successful, so it could work.

At the end you mention the consequences. It's recommended that you state consequences, but I believe that the need to state consequences has been dropped as long as the intent is still hostile. So, if they are telling you to drop your weapons in a hostile tone that would still count as an initiation. You just got to be clear about it and state your demands. Here is a picture of the rule:

1734e61add.png

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Well I have never come out of a robbing situation where i didn't get killed any way.

I usually get the "Hey thanks for the stuff, but I can't leave witnesses" ... BANG ... fade to black ... 'You Are Dead'

And I know I should report it, but every time, they have stayed out of 'check pulse' range, so i can't get a screen shot of names, and I don't have video, so it doesn't help there.

And frankly if that is the mentality people rob others with, then I am going down with a fight from now on. No more hours spent getting decent gear, to just be robbed, and then off'ed anyway.

I just want to make sure that from now on, when someone tries to rob me, I am in full rights to blow a [expletive deleted] head off, or go down in a hail of bullets, cause i'm just going to get shot if I comply.

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  • Emerald

Generally, hostile intent is pretty evident. If you are approached, and the stranger says "Drop your gun!" you have KOS rights, even though the assailant did not state consequences. If you are certain that the stranger has hostile intent with their actions, it is a safe bet that you have KOS. Keep in mind that some people are dicks. Being mean does not immediately count as hostile action.

TL;DR

"Oi mate drop your shit!" KOS is valid

"Oi mate you're a cheeky bastard!" KOS is not certain

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  • Sapphire

In order for you to have KOS rights on them, they have to make the consequences of non-compliance clear and unambiguous. If they just say "Hey, drop your gun, you have ten seconds." and then shoot you after ten seconds, that's KOS. It doesn't matter if it's obvious it was a robbery, they need to make clear what will happen if you don't comply.

Also, they don't literally have to say "...or I'll shoot you.", they can say something as general as "...or you'll regret it." The rules only state that the consequences have to be unambiguous.

Also, in the scenario you stated, they're not allowed to kill you if you comply, even if they "don't want witnesses." The funny thing about this whole apocalypse is that you'll basically never, ever be legitimately killed by players as long as you comply with any demands made under the threat of death.

Once logs are available, you'll start to see a rapid decline in these incidents. I have no doubt that there are people currently sniping survivors in fields and ambushes taking place because a lot of the server's less desirables know that without logs it's virtually impossible to determine who fired the shot.

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  • Sapphire

-snip-

Consequences are waived in SA as far as I know.

Not entirely. You don't have to be as specific as you did in the mod, but the rules state the following:

You have to make contact with the target before initiating a hostile action against it. You must make your hostile intention clear and unambiguous and state each demand before you can harm the victim(s) for non-compliance.

As I mentioned, you don't have to directly say "I'm going to kill you if you don't comply." but you at least need to make your hostile intent (that is, what you intend to do if they don't comply) clear and unambiguous.

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If you gain KOS rights on some one, bide your time and go along with it and when it is over find a weapon and hunt them down. Be careful with this, if it was a group out numbering you they will likely claim no value for life, even if you win.

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  • Sapphire

You have to be careful with the NVFL rule as well. If you are surrounded by 3 guys with guns who are robbing you, you probably aren't going to try something.

If one guy points his gun at you and clearly states he is robbing you, then you may have an opportunity if you can get a drop on them. But if they have say a m4 and you have a sporter 22 with one bullet in it. Best not to try.

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  • Titanium

Essentially, whenever someone initiates on you, you instantly gain KoS rights on that person. It's whether you decide to use them or not. There are quite a few situations you need to think about if you want to fight back.

  • NVFL: Never fight back if you're heavily out numbered. Personally, I always comply if the hostile party has more then 2 people. It just depends on the situation at the time.
  • Ruleplay > Roleplay: If someone were to initiate on you and you gained the upper hand, it is always expected that you roleplay with the hostile party. Prioritise RP if you ever get yourself into a situation where your initiator becomes your hostage.

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  • MVP

Caution, it's been a few days since your last post. Do you feel like your question has been answered?

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People seem to be bouncing back and forth on this.

The, yes you have full KoS rights if they act hostile like that

and the, no you have to wait until they state hostile intent.

To me the hostile intent is there when they point the gun at you and tell you to drop yours.

I'm all about precautions, and just pointing your gun at someone isn't always hostile, but as soon as you start making demands as well, is that where the line is drawn?


So, yes I think it got answered, but I think it should be plainly stated in the rules, something like;

"If you are approached by someone who has their gun pointed at you, it is not always hostile intent, they could just be being cautious. If they then start making demands, attempt to handcuff you, etc., it is then hostile and you gain KoS rights."

Of course the other rules must be followed as well, like baiting someone to take said actions so your buddy in the trees can shoot them is still not okay.

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  • MVP

Since you feel that your question has been answered I will be marking this thread as solved.

If someone initiates a hostile action, like telling you to drop your weapon and trying to rob you. At that time, you gain KoS rights and can defend yourself. As Sung stated, avoid NVFL and always try and roleplay with the other party; just because you have KoS rights doesn't mean you need to use them. You can refer the the entire quote here:

Essentially, whenever someone initiates on you, you instantly gain KoS rights on that person. It's whether you decide to use them or not. There are quite a few situations you need to think about if you want to fight back.

  • NVFL: Never fight back if you're heavily out numbered. Personally, I always comply if the hostile party has more then 2 people. It just depends on the situation at the time.
  • Ruleplay > Roleplay: If someone were to initiate on you and you gained the upper hand, it is always expected that you roleplay with the hostile party. Prioritise RP if you ever get yourself into a situation where your initiator becomes your hostage.

/solving

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Well I have never come out of a robbing situation where i didn't get killed any way.

I usually get the "Hey thanks for the stuff, but I can't leave witnesses" ... BANG ... fade to black ... 'You Are Dead'

And I know I should report it, but every time, they have stayed out of 'check pulse' range, so i can't get a screen shot of names, and I don't have video, so it doesn't help there.

And frankly if that is the mentality people rob others with, then I am going down with a fight from now on. No more hours spent getting decent gear, to just be robbed, and then off'ed anyway.

I just want to make sure that from now on, when someone tries to rob me, I am in full rights to blow a [expletive deleted] head off, or go down in a hail of bullets, cause i'm just going to get shot if I comply.

To kill you because you are a witness is stupid because there isn't even a police forces in an apocalypses

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Well I have never come out of a robbing situation where i didn't get killed any way.

I usually get the "Hey thanks for the stuff, but I can't leave witnesses" ... BANG ... fade to black ... 'You Are Dead'

And I know I should report it, but every time, they have stayed out of 'check pulse' range, so i can't get a screen shot of names, and I don't have video, so it doesn't help there.

And frankly if that is the mentality people rob others with, then I am going down with a fight from now on. No more hours spent getting decent gear, to just be robbed, and then off'ed anyway.

I just want to make sure that from now on, when someone tries to rob me, I am in full rights to blow a [expletive deleted] head off, or go down in a hail of bullets, cause i'm just going to get shot if I comply.

To kill you because you are a witness is stupid because there isn't even a police forces in an apocalypses

Yes I agree. But this has happened to me twice now, and i think people are trying to play it off as "roleplaying" what their character would say/do. But really, I think they just use it as an excuse to KoS cause then they get to laugh about it later.

That is neither here nor there now though. I'm sure with the implementation of the logging system, a lot of these situations will be avoided. I just hate that i feel i don't want to play any more until the system is in place because I'm just another walking vending machine of goodies to everyone until then.

This is all just my opinion because I have been on the worse end of it, and could be argued that I got the short end of the stick, or had a string of bad luck. Either way it makes the game less fun knowing this is going on, and steps are being taken to make this better, so I am happy and will see you all in game at some point I'm sure, and rob me if you must, but leave me alive after doing so for crying out loud (unless i engage you now because I'm bitter, lol)

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