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Clans, Civilians/Civiliangroups, and KoS rights.

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The point of a clan, OOCly?

Besides roleplay heavy reasons - Which is perfectly fair. But you can RP as a group without any official tag and still roleplay your background and goals together without the tag.

No, I'm specifically asking from a gameplay standpoint: Before, we thought the point of making a clan/group was to specifically allow certain interactions between other groups and clans properly; To enforce sets of rules and allow them certain things.

But as this report shows: http://www.dayzrp.com/t-formal-rp2-kos-attempted-kos-and-possible-baiting-near-prud-04-05-14-1-20?pid=649277#pid649277

From a gameplay aspect, there is literally no reason to make a clan - Why would you initiate any kind of hostile activity on another group of people when you can do so as complete civilians, with no XML, no clan-skins, no nothing to identify yourself as being involved with anyone hostile.

Apparently, all civilians need to do to be involved in a robbery is physically view the initiation. The victims of the initiation can be one hundred percent completely oblivious to who is involved in the crime, and still be shot at by randoms sitting 300M away in the tree that were not roleplaying with the group prior of the initiation. How are we supposed to identify who is hostile? How are we able to invoke revenge rights on people we literally never saw, or saw literally 0% tangible evidence of being involved with the people who initiated on us? You can argue that it makes sense realistically, but we are RPing on a game-platform here and gameplay aspect needs to have some rules.

It's unfair. Is this not the point to making a clan? Because if you're wearing the XML you share all hostile activity? If that's not true; there is no point to bandit/hostile clans if they can get away with stuff like this.

I'll admit: Misfit company is actually quite miffed at this, but a few of us feel like this is something that actually needs to be seriously discussed. Especially when we had spoken with GMs before making that report about the situation and if it was illegal or not, and they literally said "I honestly don't know."


I would like to point out that this interaction was within 200 meters of prud lake, or maybe 300.

If we returned fire on anyone in the vicinity, there was a very high chance we could of hit a random spectator or just someone running to prud, as we had absolutely no way to identify targets.

And if that was the case, we would of been banned.

So please, can someone explain to me why this is okay? Because to be perfectly honest, a group like Misfit Company can disband and play their characters without the tag and XML/Clan skins and still achieve everything they are from a RP aspect, yet gets an incredible, ridiculously high advantage during hostile interactions with other players, and especially, other clans.

Secondly: Forgive me if this is the wrong place to discuss rules, I wasn't quite sure where to place it myself.

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You shouldn't have difficulty identifying hostiles just because they don't have a clan tag, I doubt you can even see the clan tag when shooting at other clans during a fight.

I mean, there are so many people that roll around in groups without being in a clan, how can you not have had this issue before? Most people can deal with it without issue, maybe you should look at where gunfire is coming from and relay information, maybe you should just drop your weapons.

Being an official clan means you can share KOS rights with people who turn up after the initiation, that's what you get. If you feel you don't need this then don't be a clan.

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You shouldn't have difficulty identifying hostiles just because they don't have a clan tag, I doubt you can even see the clan tag when shooting at other clans during a fight.

I mean, there are so many people that roll around in groups without being in a clan, how can you not have had this issue before? Most people can deal with it without issue, maybe you should look at where gunfire is coming from and relay information, maybe you should just drop your weapons.

Being an official clan means you can share KOS rights with people who turn up after the initiation, that's what you get. If you feel you don't need this then don't be a clan.

The fact of the matter is that half of us escaped, regrouped and moved back in to see what we could do.

The only person we could of possibly identified during this was the woman who initiated, and even if we walked up to people and roleplayed asking questions to see if they were involved, we would have no idea because there is no way to possibly know if they were involved.

Meanwhile, because we were XML like a proper clan, they could shoot us on sight the moment we walked up to talk to them, as per the 2 hour hostility rule.

If I'm being shot at, I'm not going to take the time to stop, pull out my binoculars, and zoom on someone shooting at me specifically to identify my shooter. It would be different, if we had been more directly involved with the people before hand, but the only RP we had received was from a singular person out of four. The other three were sitting anywhere between 100-300 meters away from the initiation and hiding until hostility had been started.

Groups of civilians robbing people are fine, when everyone involved in the robbery is there tangibly pointing guns at the person being robbed and actively roleplaying being involved in the robbery. As far as I am concerned, you are only allowed to initiate robberies after contact has been made with the victim; Clans are only excluded from this due to the XML relating you and all your members to the robbery itself. Three of the four people involved in that robbery made literally ZERO contact with us and we had no way to tie to them to the hostile activity.

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I just don't understand how someone can get away with firing from far out of any type of contact range just because they are in a civi group, we now have absolutely no idea who that person was as he can quickly just run away and blend in again with other civis, for example in this instance if we had all survived and got away the PKP guy could have ran back into prud and blended in with the crowd and if we showed up at prud he would have KoS rights on us but we would have no way of defending ourselves. To me this clearly needs looked at because I just don't understand this.

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Because, swag

User was warned for this post

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Because, swag

Really?

Please try to commit some proper criticism to this thread, I am trying to start a legitimate discussion. We really feel like these kinds of rules need to be looked at more seriously.

Refrain from pointless responses like this, please.

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Battles, KoS rights, having a channel in TS, being able to talk OOC, being able to play games with one another, being able to meet people OOC to create an opinion about them, having an awesome XML, gaining popularity, the ability to recruit, creating RP between several clans, and adding real life organisations to a realistic, post apocalyptic video game.

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Well its basically this clans can share all rights across the ENTIRE map.

Where as "Civs" can only share them over "small" distances because as you say you have to be able to see the initiation with the view distance fog that has been added your maximum viewing distance is severely limited anyway.

Your argument for how do we know who is who is largely irrelevant and im not even sure why you mentioned clan skins because that is never happening and you yourself all wear "random" skins anyway

lets be honest people change skins every day and some skins dont even show XMLs anyway so there is no argument against that its just something you have to deal with.

Also in regards to hitting a random spectator that can always happen in any firefight im pretty sure there is no punishment for you shooting people that wonder into firefights to spectate that is completely on them.

take BOS for example every single one of them had a different merc skin or SGru (every time i saw them) or whatever there was literally no way to guess who was who other than the tag that you cant see from 100m away without a scope anyway so XMLs are largely irrelevant for example i dont ID SDS by their XML I identify them as "is he black? yeah he is probably SDS"

Also another difference between clans is that your members can be shot anywhere on the map and you all have KOS Where as civs dont unless they are right there watching even then they dont get it and can only good Samaritan you.

Lets use the 3 people who shot at you in that report as an example lets say you initiated on one of us whilst the others were not around none of us have KOS apart from the one you initiated on which is another benefit of clans.

I dont see how you feel like "clans are useless" when civs can only realistically be within 200m of each to initiate when clans can be 5648965748658490579506758m away

Also Every situation is different we pulled that off legitimately however we were extremely close to that being illegitimate you dont even understand.

All it would of took was Alexandria to say "Or I will shoot you" and we could of done nothing wording is key.

Also by the looks of how you wrote this it looks like you only made a clan so you can kill people easier with KOS rights....

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im pretty sure there is no punishment for you shooting people that wonder into firefights to spectate that is completely on them.

Actually, this is very much incorrect. Even in firefights everyone is expected to identify their targets. A loud and clear firefight is often applied as a reason to reduce the punishment, however it rarely completely removes the punishment handed out in firefight KoS situations.

Lesser punishments.

Attempted RDM - 2-3 days

Confirmed firefight KoS - 1-2 days

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XML OOC conformation of a group.Clan skins IC conformation of a group. As a group you should care foe your brother's IC and if anything were to happen to them you would support them. Through an aspect of RP giving KoS rights.

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im pretty sure there is no punishment for you shooting people that wonder into firefights to spectate that is completely on them.

Actually, this is very much incorrect. Even in firefights everyone is expected to identify their targets. A loud and clear firefight is often applied as a reason to reduce the punishment, however it rarely completely removes the punishment handed out in firefight KoS situations.

Lesser punishments.

Attempted RDM - 2-3 days

Confirmed firefight KoS - 1-2 days

Oh i know i meant reduced and sometimes no punishment due to people not putting up the reports because they will probably get banned as well so they dont bother.

Plus the staff as of late appear to be cracking down on the people that just sprint into firefights claiming protection by the rules.

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As someone who has been on the side of the civvie repeatedly, I feel that clans are the ones who get the best benefits in DayZRP. You get to share KoS simply by telling your teammates that this and that happened. A civvie doesn't have that freedom, and must be very careful about what they do, lest they get banned. The fact you can't identify targets is your own fault here, as you could have had overwatch looking for potential snipers, and ID them accordingly.

As a civvie, if you initiate, you can be shot 1 hour later on the other side of the map because some clan member IDs you, even if they were never involved in the initial hostilities. That's a risk.

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Battles, KoS rights, having a channel in TS, being able to talk OOC, being able to play games with one another, being able to meet people OOC to create an opinion about them, having an awesome XML, gaining popularity, the ability to recruit, creating RP between several clans, and adding real life organisations to a realistic, post apocalyptic video game.

Pretty much this

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The fact you can't identify targets is your own fault here, as you could have had overwatch looking for potential snipers, and ID them accordingly.

Pretty much this if you spot someone lying down looking in your direction with a sniper/PKP something like that chances are hes your enemy.

And as i said to them before they made the report if you dont know what your dealing with...Comply you can always get them later because you will know what they look like and possibly who they are afterwards.

I mean if i hear an initiation from a bush even if its 1 guy against 6 il probably still comply because i dont know where the hell he is or however many others there are...

Its all in the planning

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Battles, KoS rights, having a channel in TS, being able to talk OOC, being able to play games with one another, being able to meet people OOC to create an opinion about them, having an awesome XML, gaining popularity, the ability to recruit, creating RP between several clans, and adding real life organisations to a realistic, post apocalyptic video game.

Pretty much this

Pretty much this

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Battles, KoS rights, having a channel in TS, being able to talk OOC, being able to play games with one another, being able to meet people OOC to create an opinion about them, having an awesome XML, gaining popularity, the ability to recruit, creating RP between several clans, and adding real life organisations to a realistic, post apocalyptic video game.

Pretty much this

Literally everything but having an XML and sharing KoS rights across the map can be accomplished without a clan.

To be perfectly honest, I would rather have it that an entire clan of enemies only has KoS rights on one member of our group, than be able to share KoS rights across the map.

By running as a group of civvies and robbing people as civilians, the victim has no rights on anyone else involved unless they confirmed who they were before hand. Which, as the above report shows, there is no need to involve yourself directly.

So, we as 6 people can send 1 person, whilst we all wear no tags, to run up and commit hostile action on a group, while the remaining 5 of us sits 300 meters away, physically watching the initiation and when it goes sour we will blow them up.

The victims will have literally no idea who hit them and have literally no way to retaliate, whatsoever. It is impossible to tie nameless, hidden people to a robbery.

Personally, we will likely be disbanding our clan in the future and run as a civilian group, whilst RPing our characters as we would in a clan. People can still know who we are through name, personality, demeanor, and so on so forth. Mechanically, the advantage to running as a civilian is so far superior than any running as a clan.

Last I read, making a clan was supposed to give you more rights and rules than civilians. Sharing KoS compared to not being able to be killed on sight at all isn't even in question. Having only to worry about the person who started the robbery > Sharing KoS rights with a lone person who did rob us.


The title of the thread is a bit overtly aggressive - I'm mostly here to discuss the fact that a group of civilians who are nameless have more power than people who put effort and time into running as a group.

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Well, that's why Freedom and WTV opted to be run as a roleplaying group rather than a clan.

EDIT: By the way, if you were to send a lone guy to initiate, just so you can kill them when it goes wrong: That's baiting and you'll get reported.

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Guest Maggorra

With this days rules you earn nothing to have a clan. It is better to play as civ.

When you as a clan fight against civs it will will be impossible for the clan to "ID target" when you do not know what you are fighting against.

---------------------------

My personal opinion is lot of bad words and stupid comments to staff who are slowly destroying the server.

Why do you have this mod in Arma then you just can start up a section in secon life where you can look at each other and chata with each other instead. Then you avoid all PvP.

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Last I read, making a clan was supposed to give you more rights and rules than civilians. Sharing KoS compared to not being able to be killed on sight at all isn't even in question. Having only to worry about the person who started the robbery > Sharing KoS rights with a lone person who did rob us.

And they do way more in fact..you appear to forgive me for this but you literally just sound mad because you got screwed once....

You are also heavily over dramatizing this.

The title of the thread is a bit overtly aggressive - I'm mostly here to discuss the fact that a group of civilians who are nameless have more power than people who put effort and time into running as a group.

I may add were only acting as a civ group because our clan got archived people do still know my character as the leader of the ISOA. I only had to go to Prud the other day and B-17 pointed it out before i even said anything so in this case you could have asked around after us easily

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With this days rules you earn nothing to have a clan. It is better to play as civ.

When you as a clan fight against civs it will will be impossible for the clan to "ID target" when you do not know what you are fighting against.

---------------------------

This pretty much. Why is this allowed?

Why can I, with a friend, send him up to initiate on people whilst I as a sniper stay back and shoot the people when they don't comply? The victims literally never hear my voice; never see my skin, nothing at all.

I was told by SEVERAL people - Vets of the community; Deng, Deadkiller, that when civilians are robbing every. Single. Civilian. Involved in the robbery must directly initiate as well.

But as that report shows: There's no need to make any contact at all, merely say OOCly that they were grouped with you later. They can be 300 meters away from the start of the robbery, and they only have to view the robbery itself.

It's incredibly arguable that is a thousand times more powerful than sharing KoS rights across the map.


Last I read, making a clan was supposed to give you more rights and rules than civilians. Sharing KoS compared to not being able to be killed on sight at all isn't even in question. Having only to worry about the person who started the robbery > Sharing KoS rights with a lone person who did rob us.

And they do way more in fact..you appear to forgive me for this but you literally just sound mad because you got screwed once....

You are also heavily over dramatizing this.

The title of the thread is a bit overtly aggressive - I'm mostly here to discuss the fact that a group of civilians who are nameless have more power than people who put effort and time into running as a group.

I may add were only acting as a civ group because our clan got archived people do still know my character as the leader of the ISOA. I only had to go to Prud the other day and B-17 pointed it out before i even said anything so in this case you could have asked around after us easily

Actually, this is something we once quit the server over before, long ago during our days as Fox Run PMC - Civilians being more of an advantage over our group. I am not dramatizing it; everything spoken in here is absolute fact. There is nothing exaggerated or dramatic about this thread at all.

I'm merely starting a discussion about rules we feel are unfair. And a few others, apparently, and seeing where it goes. It's harmless and doesn't hurt at all to talk about; it's how communities improve.

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Actually, this is something we once quit the server over before, long ago during our days as Fox Run PMC - Civilians being more of an advantage over our group. I am not dramatizing it; everything spoken in here is absolute fact. There is nothing exaggerated or dramatic about this thread at all.

I'm merely starting a discuss about rules we feel are unfair. And a few others, apparently, and seeing where it goes. It's harmless and doesn't hurt at all to talk about; it's how communities improve.

Actually there are some things you are exaggerating...

300m? i was never that far i was 90-140m during the whole fight.

PKP guy 200m max since he had his zeroing on 200m and he was hitting you.

Saying OOCLy that we were a group afterwards? you chased all 3 of us for 5 minutes prior to that...

Were also a known group in game easily distinguished and even more easily found with a little IC information finding

And your right it is a harmless discussion but it looks to me like its fueled by rage rather than actually wanting to clarify the rules.

I mean i tried to explain this to wheoever i spoke to on TS (Makin i think) but he didnt want to hear it....Id be happy to try and do so again if you like i really dont mind.

A report doesn't go your way you instantly make a discussion saying this and that is unfair.

Dont get me wrong im not trying to belittle you or anything it just looks that way to me.

And to be honest if you quit the server because of that your probably making a clan for the wrong reasons..

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Battles, KoS rights, having a channel in TS, being able to talk OOC, being able to play games with one another, being able to meet people OOC to create an opinion about them, having an awesome XML, gaining popularity, the ability to recruit, creating RP between several clans, and adding real life organisations to a realistic, post apocalyptic video game.

Pretty much this

Literally everything but having an XML and sharing KoS rights across the map can be accomplished without a clan.

To be perfectly honest, I would rather have it that an entire clan of enemies only has KoS rights on one member of our group, than be able to share KoS rights across the map.

By running as a group of civvies and robbing people as civilians, the victim has no rights on anyone else involved unless they confirmed who they were before hand. Which, as the above report shows, there is no need to involve yourself directly.

So, we as 6 people can send 1 person, whilst we all wear no tags, to run up and commit hostile action on a group, while the remaining 5 of us sits 300 meters away, physically watching the initiation and when it goes sour we will blow them up.

The victims will have literally no idea who hit them and have literally no way to retaliate, whatsoever. It is impossible to tie nameless, hidden people to a robbery.

Personally, we will likely be disbanding our clan in the future and run as a civilian group, whilst RPing our characters as we would in a clan. People can still know who we are through name, personality, demeanor, and so on so forth. Mechanically, the advantage to running as a civilian is so far superior than any running as a clan.

Last I read, making a clan was supposed to give you more rights and rules than civilians. Sharing KoS compared to not being able to be killed on sight at all isn't even in question. Having only to worry about the person who started the robbery > Sharing KoS rights with a lone person who did rob us.


The title of the thread is a bit overtly aggressive - I'm mostly here to discuss the fact that a group of civilians who are nameless have more power than people who put effort and time into running as a group.

That my friend is called baiting and ruleplaying.

What do you want us to do? Make it so only clans can rob people?

If you are going to sit by and complain about something, then ignore the perfectly valid answers at least suggest a possible solution please?

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