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MartinJ

The IC/OOC separation and racism

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Why do people start judging CLF when the topic is something else?


OK so having read this discussion, I personally don't mind the racial slurs IC, need I mention that I am a black man, but the N word doesn't bother me because for one, this is just a game, a role playing server at that...I have had many occasions where I used my real voice on teamspeak and someone asks me "Are you black" and I am like "yep!" and there has been no problems, the time someone should really take offense is if the other party wasn't IC and was OOC, but besides that I have no problem

That's the problem...

People don't know if to take it IC or OOC...

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Why do people start judging CLF when the topic is something else?


OK so having read this discussion, I personally don't mind the racial slurs IC, need I mention that I am a black man, but the N word doesn't bother me because for one, this is just a game, a role playing server at that...I have had many occasions where I used my real voice on teamspeak and someone asks me "Are you black" and I am like "yep!" and there has been no problems, the time someone should really take offense is if the other party wasn't IC and was OOC, but besides that I have no problem

That's the problem...

People don't know if to take it IC or OOC...

If it's said IC and it's a character saying, it's IC. If it's the player saying it in OOC then it's OOC. What the hell is the problem with that distinction?

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Because you have to draw a line somewhere between insult and roleplay. And as long as there are people unable to differentiate it, rules are important imo.

As i said before, I can totally see where you come from and I can agree to many points, but there are people out there, calling me a bitch ingame and OOC, because they can´t differentiate. And we have to find a way to deal with that problem.

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Do you agree with this though?

That being said, it's not always the word that is offensive. Usually, it's the fact that the other means to insult you with that word. It's the other guy's intention that's the problem. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me? Tell that to the thousands of people that get bullied every day.

You're right when you say that words are just words, and they have meaning because we give them meaning, but words don't only hurt because of their meaning, they also hurt because of the intention behind them.

If someone called me "floppyblobby", and I knew their intention was to hurt me, then I might feel hurt, even though "floppyblobby" doesn't have a meaning in our world.

Yes I can fully agree that it is the intention behind the word and not the word itself that hurts, but then again the reasoning for it to be interpret this way is because the reactions given to the word.

If someone called me a floppyblobby I probably wouldn't understand a thing, how I would distinguish his intension with the word is hard to say as I haven't been in such situation. How would you know his intension, there would have to be more factors such as a history with the person, or something happening earlier in given conversation?

If a random person walked by you on a street and shouted floppybloppy after you I would be left with a thought that he was just a weirdo, I would in no way take offense to it. As I said there there would have to be more then just simply that?

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Do you agree with this though?

That being said, it's not always the word that is offensive. Usually, it's the fact that the other means to insult you with that word. It's the other guy's intention that's the problem. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me? Tell that to the thousands of people that get bullied every day.

You're right when you say that words are just words, and they have meaning because we give them meaning, but words don't only hurt because of their meaning, they also hurt because of the intention behind them.

If someone called me "floppyblobby", and I knew their intention was to hurt me, then I might feel hurt, even though "floppyblobby" doesn't have a meaning in our world.

Yes I can fully agree that it is the intention behind the word and not the word itself that hurts, but then again the reasoning for it to be interpret this way is because the reactions given to the word.

If someone called me a floppyblobby I probably wouldn't understand a thing, how I would distinguish his intension with the word is hard to say as I haven't been in such situation. How would you know his intension, there would have to be more factors such as a history with the person, or something happening earlier in given conversation?

If a random person walked by you on a street and shouted floppybloppy after you I would be left with a thought that he was just a weirdo, I would in no way take offense to it. As I said there there would have to be more then just simply that?

Fair enough.

People are offended though. Whether that's their problem is irrelevant. We're not here to play as your parents. We're here to make this experience pleasurable for all, and I think not being a racist in-game isn't too much to ask. If your RP is limited to being a racist, then you aren't very creative.

In the Netherlands, it's popular to use the word "cancer" (or rather, the translation) as a term of abuse. Not to insult others perse, but just to... vent. If I stub my toe, I might scream "cancer!" in pain. I do this not with the intention of insulting people that have cancer. It's just a word that I use coincidentally. Maybe it's an easy word to scream, I don't know.

In any case, the point I wanted to make is that if someone asks me not to scream "cancer" because he feels insulted, I will stop screaming "cancer". Not because I agree with him. But because I don't mind making sacrifices if it makes another person happy. For me it's way easy to change the word "cancer" to "flobbyploppy" or something, than it is for him not to feel insulted by the word "cancer".

Bottom line is: I'm sure we can all find ways to roleplay without being racists. Make this sacrifice not because it is a logical one, but do it for the sake of others. It isn't -that- big of a sacrifice to make.

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Do you agree with this though?

If someone called me "floppyblobby", and I knew their intention was to hurt me, then I might feel hurt, even though "floppyblobby" doesn't have a meaning in our world.

Yes I can fully agree that it is the intention behind the word and not the word itself that hurts, but then again the reasoning for it to be interpret this way is because the reactions given to the word.

If someone called me a floppyblobby I probably wouldn't understand a thing, how I would distinguish his intension with the word is hard to say as I haven't been in such situation. How would you know his intension, there would have to be more factors such as a history with the person, or something happening earlier in given conversation?

If a random person walked by you on a street and shouted floppybloppy after you I would be left with a thought that he was just a weirdo, I would in no way take offense to it. As I said there there would have to be more then just simply that?

Fair enough.

People are offended though. Whether that's their problem is irrelevant. We're not here to play as your parents. We're here to make this experience pleasurable for all, and I think not being a racist in-game isn't too much to ask. If your RP is limited to being a racist, then you aren't very creative.

In the Netherlands, it's popular to use the word "cancer" (or rather, the translation) as a term of abuse. Not to insult others perse, but just to... vent. If I stub my toe, I might scream "cancer!" in pain. I do this not with the intention of insulting people that have cancer. It's just a word that I use coincidentally. Maybe it's an easy word to scream, I don't know.

In any case, the point I wanted to make is that if someone asks me not to scream "cancer" because he feels insulted, I will stop screaming "cancer". Not because I agree with him. But because I don't mind making sacrifices if it makes another person happy. For me it's way easy to change the word "cancer" to "flobbyploppy" or something, than it is for him not to feel insulted by the word "cancer".

Bottom line is: I'm sure we can all find ways to roleplay without being racists. Make this sacrifice not because it is a logical one, but do it for the sake of others. It isn't -that- big of a sacrifice to make.

This I can agree to, as I stated previously, i'm not here to change the rules or to allow racism. I'm here to address the problem, I know DayZRP is not the correct place to start such campaign so take it more as a personal rant from me :)

Bottom line is: I'm sure we can all find ways to roleplay without being racists. Make this sacrifice not because it is a logical one, but do it for the sake of others. It isn't -that- big of a sacrifice to make.

This is a quote I like.

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People are offended though. Whether that's their problem is irrelevant. We're not here to play as your parents. We're here to make this experience pleasurable for all, and I think not being a racist in-game isn't too much to ask. If your RP is limited to being a racist, then you aren't very creative.

You're playing parents already - to the people who would get offended by something they by all means shouldn't be offended by protecting them.

In any case' date=' the point I wanted to make is that if someone asks me not to scream "cancer" because he feels insulted, I will stop screaming "cancer". Not because I agree with him. But because I don't mind making sacrifices if it makes another person happy. For me it's way easy to change the word "cancer" to "flobbyploppy" or something, than it is for him not to feel insulted by the word "cancer".[/quote']

Again, complete misconception. You're mixing real life with roleplay. If I OOCly ask you to stop killing people because my parents were killed and it offends me, are you going to change your roleplay which might (or might not, doesn't matter, we're debating) involve killings others?

Bottom line is: I'm sure we can all find ways to roleplay without being racists. Make this sacrifice not because it is a logical one, but do it for the sake of others. It isn't -that- big of a sacrifice to make.

Again the same problem. Roleplaying A racist doesn't mean roleplaying while being a racist. There needs to be a difference. This is an easy solution for so long as people realize that this is a roleplay server.

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It's an interesting discussion, ZeroXiz. What I'm studying now (partly) focuses on problems like these. As you said, DayZRP is not the correct place to enforce such a thing, but it can be the place to have discussions about it. Discussions never harmed anyone. The point of discussions isn't always to get something to change. :)


People are offended though. Whether that's their problem is irrelevant. We're not here to play as your parents. We're here to make this experience pleasurable for all, and I think not being a racist in-game isn't too much to ask. If your RP is limited to being a racist, then you aren't very creative.

You're playing parents already - to the people who would get offended by something they by all means shouldn't be offended by protecting them.

In any case' date=' the point I wanted to make is that if someone asks me not to scream "cancer" because he feels insulted, I will stop screaming "cancer". Not because I agree with him. But because I don't mind making sacrifices if it makes another person happy. For me it's way easy to change the word "cancer" to "flobbyploppy" or something, than it is for him not to feel insulted by the word "cancer".[/quote']

Again, complete misconception. You're mixing real life with roleplay. If I OOCly ask you to stop killing people because my parents were killed and it offends me, are you going to change your roleplay which might (or might not, doesn't matter, we're debating) involve killings others?

Bottom line is: I'm sure we can all find ways to roleplay without being racists. Make this sacrifice not because it is a logical one, but do it for the sake of others. It isn't -that- big of a sacrifice to make.

Again the same problem. Roleplaying A racist doesn't mean roleplaying while being a racist. There needs to be a difference. This is an easy solution for so long as people realize that this is a roleplay server.

How do you propose we see the difference between someone roleplaying a racist while not actually being one, and someone pretending to roleplay a racist while actually being one?

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It's an interesting discussion, ZeroXiz. What I'm studying now (partly) focuses on problems like these. As you said, DayZRP is not the correct place to enforce such a thing, but it can be the place to have discussions about it. Discussions never harmed anyone. The point of discussions isn't always to get something to change. :)

I'm in love with you, it's so great to have a discussion without having to be pissed off afterwards. A lot of respect for you Gijs.

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I agree.

And if it's against the rules to be racist towards another player because it offends them, then the same should happen if I get called a b*tch as it offends me. Same logic.

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How do you propose we see the difference between someone roleplaying a racist while not actually being one, and someone pretending to roleplay a racist while actually being one?

It doesn't matter if they're OOCly racist, at least not to you. What you should concern yourself with is if they're OOCly insulting somebody. Just like you'd watch out for someone calling a player a "cunt" OOCly, then you watch out for someone calling another player a "nigger", "chink", "spic", or whatever other racial slurs you can think of, OOCly.

It's pretty simple. If my character, Elias, is talking to the Garcias IC, we get into an argument and my character calls them spics, even repeatedly, and tell them to go eat their burritos, that's all fine and dandy.

If I say that OOCly then that's OOC racism and should be punished. Be it on the forums, via // OOC chat, during an OOC conversation on TS or even in-game.

It's how we've dealt with it for years in other communities and it's always worked out just fine. People just need to come to terms with the fact that what's IC stays IC, and that's best done by the directive that only OOC racism is against the rules. People realize that pretty fast that they need not to take it so seriously if there isn't a rule against it and the community leaders explain the situation.

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Oh my god.

You're kidding me, right? Just because it says 'players' and not 'characters' it should be allowed. That's absolutely ridiculous. By your logic, I can go sexually harass female players--excuse me, CHARACTERS and it would be allowed because I don't really mean it, right?

No.

EDIT: As it has been said before: people get offended. And we don't want that. I would understand if what they said wasn't as blatant as it was, but calling someone a "nigger cotton slave" is nowhere near reasonable, and even I find it offensive.

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I agree.

And if it's against the rules to be racist towards another player because it offends them, then the same should happen if I get called a b*tch as it offends me. Same logic.

This all day.

If this is done because it offends people, whats stopping anyone from reporting people for things that offend people ( Swearing and such ) or clans that offend people in other ways, like what they stand for? In the end, they are words, how mature you are dictates if they are offensive or not.

Its a slippery slope.

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I agree.

And if it's against the rules to be racist towards another player because it offends them, then the same should happen if I get called a b*tch as it offends me. Same logic.

This all day.

If this is done because it offends people, whats stopping anyone from reporting people for things that offend people ( Swearing and such ) or clans that offend people in other ways, like what they stand for? In the end, they are words, how mature you are dictates if they are offensive or not.

Its a slippery slope.

It's not a slippery slope. The can report all they want, but in the end the rules and the staff decide what's allowed and what isn't. You have to draw the line somewhere, and we have decided to draw that line at racism and sexism.

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People comparing someone saying "Bitch" to "Nigger cotton slave."

Disgusting.

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People comparing someone saying "Bitch" to "Nigger cotton slave."

Disgusting.

This.

My view is.. A bitch is clearly a female dog and of course it is used for someone who is claimed to be a scared person/also a 'pussy'. Basically the way I see this going is, racism to a extent is okay, yes yes I know it is 'sooo wrong' but come on, anyone these days even says black is racist or brown, or nigger, now I am white as they come but quite frankly if I were black I'd be cool with a few jokes here and there about the skin colour and the past (Just not too bad of a past stuff though), like I am cool with people taking the ultimate piss out of the British and my past if they know it. We are all different yes, that is what makes us.. Us but as Jerry said if we compare someone saying "Bitch" to "Nigger cotton slave" this is just going to become a damn report and whining phase constantly. If someone takes racism too far then report them, if someone takes name calling too far, report them but not for silly shit like "Oh you are a bitch, go cry a river" or "Damn nigger", neither seem report worthy and neither seem to hurt anyone unless truly as someone said up in here you are not mature and let it hurt your feelings, then I gotta say.. Why play a rated 18+ game with a community that is mostly 18+ too?

Edit: Also I meant this both for IC and OOC, as long as the people you are talking to do not mind it, of course and the only way to find out is to ask both IC and OOC / say it and such, but don't take it too far, of course. Nigger/Bitch, sure but further is just as Jerry said disgusting. (That goes with the past life sort of history thing I said above)

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People comparing someone saying "Bitch" to "Nigger cotton slave."

Disgusting.

This. +100

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My bet would be people that are dropping the N bomb or saying cotton picking slave are using the whole IC thing as an excuse to be a racist. I think that excessive racial abuse has no place in this community similar to role playing rape. That language is hurtful. And to people who say that "OH if I was black I wouldn't mind......." ITs easy to say that when you have never been black and had to experience actual down right racism IRL, because if you had to you wouldn't think that way.

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Guest Astycc

ITs easy to say that when you have never been black

Yet how would you know if it offends you personally if you're not black either?

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So by the same logic, Dragons should be able to report anyone that calls them a chink or any other racial slur for those of asian decent? you cannot limit it to just the N word.

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My bet would be people that are dropping the N bomb or saying cotton picking slave are using the whole IC thing as an excuse to be a racist. I think that excessive racial abuse has no place in this community similar to role playing rape. That language is hurtful. And to people who say that "OH if I was black I wouldn't mind......." ITs easy to say that when you have never been black and had to experience actual down right racism IRL, because if you had to you wouldn't think that way.

So.. Cause I'm white I know nothing about offensive language? I'm sorry then because when people call me Cracker it is not entirely like being called a Nigger, is it? Actually yes it is, that is the word used to for White people like Nigger is used for Black people. You can't say that really at all.

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My bet would be people that are dropping the N bomb or saying cotton picking slave are using the whole IC thing as an excuse to be a racist. I think that excessive racial abuse has no place in this community similar to role playing rape. That language is hurtful. And to people who say that "OH if I was black I wouldn't mind......." ITs easy to say that when you have never been black and had to experience actual down right racism IRL, because if you had to you wouldn't think that way.

So.. Cause I'm white I know nothing about offensive language? I'm sorry then because when people call me Cracker it is not entirely like being called a Nigger, is it? Actually yes it is, that is the word used to for White people like Nigger is used for Black people. You can't say that really at all.

Do you even know what's A cracker is? It the term used for a white person who would whip a black slave. Black were beaten, the woman raped. Blacks for a certain time where not allowed to go into a white bathroom, or drink at the same fountain. Ever hear of segregation? What about lynchings where they rounded up innocent blacks and hung them from trees just for being black? I could go on and on but yeah I'm sure cracker and the n word same thing. I guarantee this conversation would not be carrying on this long if it involved Slurs used toward the Jews.

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My bet would be people that are dropping the N bomb or saying cotton picking slave are using the whole IC thing as an excuse to be a racist. I think that excessive racial abuse has no place in this community similar to role playing rape. That language is hurtful. And to people who say that "OH if I was black I wouldn't mind......." ITs easy to say that when you have never been black and had to experience actual down right racism IRL, because if you had to you wouldn't think that way.

So.. Cause I'm white I know nothing about offensive language? I'm sorry then because when people call me Cracker it is not entirely like being called a Nigger, is it? Actually yes it is, that is the word used to for White people like Nigger is used for Black people. You can't say that really at all.

Do you even know what's A cracker is? It the term used for a white person who would whip a black slave. Black were beaten, the woman raped. Blacks for a certain time where not allowed to go into a white bathroom, or drink at the same fountain. Ever hear of segregation? What about lynchings where they rounded up innocent blacks and hung them from trees just for being black? I could go on and on but yeah I'm sure cracker and the n word same thing. I guarantee this conversation would not be carrying on this long if it involved Slurs used toward the Jews.

Again you proved my point slightly here. "It the term used for a white person who would whip a black slave." meaning it is offensive to call me a Cracker? No? Not entirely, if I allow it, I'll allow it, it varies on person to person, you clear state here proves you do not allow it meaning sure, go ahead and report people for saying Nigger or Cracker, do what you want but if someone says I'm a nigger, cracker, satanist, chink of anything 'racial' I wont mind it, why? Because come on, it is a word.. It hurts.. Not.

"innocent blacks and hung them from trees just for being black?" and NOTHING bad ever happened to white people. Fuck sake, you really just want to prove something here don't you? WE SHOULDN'T GIVE ONE RACE A EXCEPTION AND NOT THE OTHER. Fucking hell.

It is like saying "Oh she is a girl, let's not punch her". Dude, stop. Really.. You are wanting to give black people a exception to this, that isn't how making stuff not segregated works.

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Guest Otmel Strangler

Bah, gimme a break with this moral crusade, please. The world of DayzRP is a morally questionable universe anyway. You can shoot somebody in the neck for all sorts of petty reasons, yet you cannot use slurs or otherwise insenstive lingo while doing it? Who are you, Tipper Gore?

Might as well plaster this all over the Chernarusian sky:

parental-advisory_custom-d61ea6192ebc478d3a7ff147dbbe3e884ebcb5ac-s6-c30.jpg

So by the same logic, Dragons should be able to report anyone that calls them a chink or any other racial slur for those of asian decent? you cannot limit it to just the N word.

Happens all the time. Obviously we tend to take it badly IC, but OOC I couldn't care less, personaly.

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