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Hostile Groups Matter


Inferno

Hostile Group Lives Matter  

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  • Hofer changed the title to Hostile Groups Matter
  • MVP

Speaking some god damn facts.

Can't do anything hostile because people always cry about consequences of their own actions.

Instead of repeating the same bullshit your friends echo into your head, go have an interaction with the group and form your own damn opinion.

 

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  • Game Master

Yup, S-GRU was peak aids for being ganked by zergs made up of 3/4 different groups that would hop on alts to avoid the consequences of their actions. First day too. The pointless attacks on Cherno where nobody really came out on top and that didn't lead anywhere story wise were also demotivating, especially given that we caught some of the offenders of those attacks and they refused to PK.

Either that or you'd have people taking these issues out of character, like with Cerberus and the wave of final warnings, reports and general drama that washed up after that. People DMing staff members with their complaints aswell and then not even being asked for a PoV on it has also been an issue.

I've learned that you've got to pick your battles, fighting the whole server, even if it makes sense for your group, just isn't possible any more.

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  • Game Master

I don't envy hostile groups and those that regularly run in them. The jaded behavior and attitude by most people that I know that routinely do this is understood.

 

Do they drive RP? Yes.

Do they push stories? Yes.

Do they invoke emotions in their victims? Yes.

 

These are all positives. Issue is motivation becomes impossible to keep going when all these people see all day on the forums or in the discord are community members griping unjustly about their actions. 

The issue comes from that it only takes one crass person in a group during a helpdesk discussion, or one of those people that only ever logs in for a gunfight and then dips out again being a meme, to ruin the groups image in the eyes of a good bulk of the community and then its an uphill battle to ever do anything to redeem the reputation of the group as being anything other then 'pvp gear monkeys' that just run around and rob people. So many groups just throw in the towel on keeping any sort of reputation going and fall back on the meme of "IC is IC" and "keep it in character". These are dishonest brush-offs, because IC is not just IC in this community and hasn't been the entire time I've been here. Case in point, I've had people come to me directly to tell me they didn't initiate on me because they knew it was me, Staff Member Rover, and didn't want to keep a staff member around the roleplay. The principle of IC is IC is important, but its equally as important to recognize its not a good faith argument in a discussion.

 

It sure doesn't help that there is a vocal minority in the community that can't view any roleplay where they lose gear as a positive experience, or can't view any experience they receive ICly that is negative as being OOCly motivated. Its a hard balance between providing meaningful quality RP, but also keeping people OOCly on the up and up and ensuring that even if their character is going through a personalized hell, the person OOCly is at least enjoying it. And with some people, that is simply impossible. All the best OOC communication and double checking can't do anything if one of your targets can't enjoy any roleplay where they are not 'in charge' or where they lose possessions/agency of their character. Some people just can't stand being initiated on. And that sucks.

As for being ganged up on by the server, I mean, fair? If you play the bad guy, you are gonna get treated like that. :D 

16 minutes ago, groovy ducky said:

Can't do anything hostile because people always cry about consequences of their own actions.

To be fair, its not always because of the consequences of their own actions. Sometimes people just run afoul of a hostile group, because that is the roleplay they are getting today, and there is nothing they could have done to avoid it other then not log in. This shouldn't be a black mark against the group though. Hostile groups are a necessity in the community. The world is not a Safe Space.

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  • Legend
Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Inferno said:

Kinda feel like people tend to look at hostile groups like it’s coming of the anti-Christ and just gang up on em to remove because big bad wolf. Or they just spread hearsay because of one hostile interaction and others instantly believe. It do be apocalypse so hostile groups would be most common thing to see

You know what the biggest motivation killer is for those of us that have regularly done hostile groups? And yes you aren't going to like who it involves, but unfortunately I can only state it in the most respectful way possible: Massive fucking zergs of combined groups forging alliances instead of taking losses on the chin and changing their roleplay style, even for a few days.

When the Fishermen teamed up with Chechnyan terrorists ICly nobody except the fishermen and chechnyans believed it was a valid alliance. Fishermen weren't winning fights against us so instead of trying to do some different kind of roleplay where you guys weren't the top dog for once, you chose to just fight again this time with an even bigger force. Like, people in said group doing this used to call others PVP focused all the time but how is that not the literal definition of it? This is just one instance of groups having a unique set of circumstances and choosing to fight SGRU, it happened again with 3 different groups once our Chernogorsk plan was invoked. That could've been something unique, a new way to roleplay but people would rather stick to the old, form megasquads and attack it until it fell. Like @Hofer said, groups lack originality in terms of roleplay yet when we offered a unique solution, to effectively help run things IC and provide a solid foundation for a new way to play DayZRP (at least for a little while) people dogbrained it out of existence. Would've been nice to try it out and the feedback we got from the civilian / passive groups was that it was enjoyable on the whole (aside from the crashing unfortunately). 

Lately we're still seeing some of the same people hopping on alts or running dynamic with other groups. Not that i'm glorifying my warning points (because I'm not), but there's a reason I referred to someone as ImGroovy...LR. It's not enjoyable being ganked by megasquads because they lost a fight and to be quite frank, it's brutally unfair to instantly resort to it. 

What i've said above is the single biggest killer of motivation purely because fighting has no consequences in the grand scheme of things. There's obviously other things like people's complete animosity towards it due to the fact that they've had some bad experiences.

Over the years we've seen less and less negotiation between hostile groups too which I honestly think is a result of discords being private. It feels very difficult to actually find people to negotiate with unlike the teamspeak days.

/rant

Edited by Para
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  • MVP
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, mike655363 said:

While I can't speak about all hostile groups, I have been on the receiving end of a lot of hostile RP ever since I first created my character, I can say that the experience is different for the two but both in good ways.

Individual hostile actions drive relationships. You look at who they are, who they're affiliated with and say "Ok. If I survive this. How am I going to give them their just desserts?" or "How am I going to evade this individual in the future?"  Now somehow I manage to weasel my way out of a lot of these interactions and things go back to normal in a matter of days. I imagine a rough 70% of the time this is the same for others. In the end the emotions a character gains is anger or fear towards one person which even if things go back to normal may lead to conflict down the line.

Groups on the other hand are a whole different ball game. It's that real 'Oh shit' moment. And I can't think of a better example then when Dead Horse held us up at our base when I was rocking with AZ (The old doctor group). They took the person that claimed to be leader. Took us all hostage and after a discussion, shot him in the face in front of us. That's how you strike fear into characters, and that's how you start a short- but furious war, and it was the most fun I've had on the server to date.

In the end, hostile RP is just that, another form of RP. And people that shit on others for running with a hostile group or being a bandit should re-consider the fact we're RP'ing in a dog eat dog apocalypse.

Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of words?

I have mad respect for you for accepting the RP you were provided and turning it into a longer story, something to drive motive for the people around you, rather than immediately jumping into the OOC and complaining about it, I wish so many others were capable of doing as you do, this place would be a lot different.

Edited by groovy ducky
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  • VIP

I like most groups, including the hostile ones but what I hate to see is groups that have a generic goal of kill as many as possible and steal their shit.
I consider a good interaction when both parties get some good RP out of a situation, and if that goal is accomplished, I don't give a rat's ass if I die or lose a weapon.
No certain things do make sense, IC, but OOC, it really pisses me off. I do tend to always think IC comes first, but when certain things happen IC in-game, I can't help but think it has more of an OOC reason behind it.
It cannot be proven, but it is based on a feeling you get from a person that you somewhat know OOC and how he or she acts IC. I do get this feeling from certain members of CLF, but because of lack of proof, I'm not going to hang them out.
So the bottom line is: make a unique hostile group with some interesting goals for RP, and I'm sure everyone will enjoy both the hostile and the non-hostile RP from you and your group.

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  • Emerald
Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Para said:

When the Fishermen teamed up with Chechnyan terrorists ICly nobody except the fishermen and chechnyans believed it was a valid alliance. Fishermen weren't winning fights against us so instead of trying to do some different kind of roleplay

We did change up our roleplay, but not very much. By allying with a group we didn't want to ally with. But the "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" came into the picture. I do understand what ur trying to say. Now if we did "surrender" you would only try to PK anyone and everyone you could. That was atleast what i personally thought as it seems it was a big focus of yours. RIP @Duke. You COULD have started negotiating with us for his life, but you killed him.

 

19 minutes ago, Para said:

Lately we're still seeing some of the same people hopping on alts or running dynamic with other groups. Not that i'm glorifying my warning points (because I'm not), but there's a reason I referred to someone as ImGroovy...LR. It's not enjoyable being ganked by megasquads because they lost a fight and to be quite frank, it's brutally unfair to instantly resort to it. 

People swap characters because groups die, but have you asked these individuals if they want to do any kind of RP on the other characters? (Scripting is trashy and boring, but sometimes u gotta ask for sertain things OOCly) Maybe if the classic: Rob him/her -> shit talk for an hour -> //Perms to PK? doesn't happen. Maybe more people'll start doing it 🤷‍♂️ 

 

19 minutes ago, Para said:

Over the years we've seen less and less negotiation between hostile groups too which I honestly think is a result of discords being private. It feels very difficult to actually find people to negotiate with unlike the teamspeak days.

Be the change. Start doing it. I'm sure SOME people will pick up on it. Maybe not everyone because people's ego skyrockets in a firefight.
 

#Stop308gaming #stopzerggaming

Edited by MaybeleleLR
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  • Sapphire

Oh boy here comes Pepsi with another post.

Ahem

Same as Mike above, whos words literally nailed it. Hostility in RP is a two way street, which some roleplayers apply only a one-way street. Majority of time those attacked forget that the other side pointing the gun are also under a lot of stress.

I've seen AND been in situations of Hostile RP, and some people do the best Hostile RP even for a simple snatch & grab. CJ & the 5.0.3 has offered me, in my personal opinion, the best Hostile RP on the server, and I see the difference. OOC Burnout, and here's why. People that initiate that have a group around will proceed to mess around with the victim. If they have a mission, they will follow it. If they do not, comes the problem, what to do with the victim? 

The "What now" scenario always crosses my mind before I consider initiations, for its different than doing the deed itself, given I have no experience. I got to be careful to speak up, make sure that he does not pull a fast one on me, make sure when I'm initiating to make sure he's alone or to take their friends in sight, it's difficult for a solo man or small group.

 

The current standard of Hostile RP is Kill, Raid, Mayhem, move on. I've seen so many people just disregard their own safety, I see cocky replies because said group has veteran players, while those less skilled get clapped and resort to OOC chatter.

What I believe, is those who prioritize RP > PVP feel disfavored in Hostile RP, because it's "get good or die" mentality over and over and over, which led to many leaving or just stopped playing. I want to see creativity used in Hostile RP, but to do that takes a LOT of change and restraints for both teams.

 

Hostile RP isn't only PVP and shouldn't only be PVP, it should involve fear, anger, concerns. Too many are cocky people in fights. 

 

51 minutes ago, Hofer said:

IC: Lack of creativity. Hostile groups are rarely very creative. It's always the same groups rehashed with a new name.

t h i s

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  • Legend
7 minutes ago, MaybeleleLR said:

We did change up our roleplay, but not very much. By allying with a group we didn't want to ally with. But the "an enemy of my enemy is my friend" came into the picture. I do understand what ur trying to say. 

The "enemy of my enemy" shouldn't even come into play with regards to that, and given you're friends with them OOC now it's a tad hard to swallow that this was all IC for some of you, you have to understand.

7 minutes ago, MaybeleleLR said:

Now if we did "surrender" you would only try to PK anyone and everyone you could. That was atleast what i personally thought as it seems it was a big focus of yours. RIP @Duke. You COULD have started negotiating with us for his life, but you killed him.

Fair point to make. Being gung-ho for PK rights isn't a good thing and it definitely puts people off. Doesn't mean some people aren't being silly for not giving them after their history but still I see your point on that. I don't know too much of what's happened for the last 4 ish months aside from a few interactions in the last week. In all fairness though, we gave Duke a long time to make a case for why he should "live" before asking for PK rights, trying to negotiate with him for things before we didn't see any alternative to killing him. Perhaps we could have tried to radio negotiate with you, would've been the better course of action for roleplay so I take that on board. 

9 minutes ago, MaybeleleLR said:

Be the change. Start doing it. I'm sure SOME people will pick up on it. Maybe not everyone because people's ego skyrockets in a firefight.

I did try, most of the things I suggest I brought up whilst I was admin and got shut down. I personally still think the best thing for group negotiations is IC radio having to be in the DayZRP discord to make it similar to how TS functioned. I brought it up with the big man himself and how it would take me all of an hour to set it up with proper group tags but this was apparently "too much effort". I don't think it is too much effort for what it could potentially change (not saying it'd work but hey worth a shot right?).

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  • MVP

I don't think it's hard to stay motivated as a hostile group. All you need is a group of people you like playing with and some nice goals you can try and achieve IG.

Of course there will always be some sort of drama that might discourage people from playing but I don't think that is necessarily happening only to hostile groups. I have been playing on mostly hostile groups since coming back years ago and the only group that I lost motivation in was Cerberus and that was mostly because the server was so shit I stayed more in the loading screen than IG because of the crashes.

If people bitch and moan at hostile groups then that right there is a reason to be even more motivated. Every time I saw someone upset I robbed them or raided their base it made me want to rob them more and raid even more bases. The salt can be quite refreshing sometimes.

13 minutes ago, MaybeleleLR said:

Be the change. Start doing it. I'm sure SOME people will pick up on it. Maybe not everyone because people's ego skyrockets in a firefight.
 

#Stop308gaming #stopzerggaming

Bro you are the same guy that joined with the Im boys on some random Russo character to attack us while also using a 308 gun. Like I don't disagree with the statement but I can't just not point out the irony in it.

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  • Emerald
11 minutes ago, MaybeleleLR said:

#Stop308gaming #stopzerggaming

Not sure why you included these, because 7 times out of 10 when i meet you in game you're either egocentric because you're with a big group (zerg) or you have a 308 Weapon roleplayer Mebelele, As you said though 'Be the change'...

 

The sad truth is that people sometimes cannot differentiate between IRL and IG, Prejudices are made and distaste comes which i myself am guilty of. @mike655363 has the correct mindset imo and was spot on with what he said.

 

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  • Diamond

- THE USER HAS BEEN WARNED FOR THIS POST -

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In my opinion the main reason why it's difficult to run/play a hostile group on DayzRP in 2021 is because people have lost the ability to differentiate between OOC and IC.

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  • Diamond
Posted (edited)

ALL GROUPS MATTER

I've been in hostile groups myself and I'm no PvP'er, but most of the points I have are covered by @Hofer & @Pepsi. My biggest complaint in the serious issue of just pessimism and negativity. This desire to argue over the forums because of feedback? Seriously? Another issue I see, is the great glorious RP'ers in hostile groups being over shadowed by some seriously shitty players. I am talking the toxic, muck filled, negative people that represent the group and just lay out sludge so thick you could walk on it. Then when they get called out for it, their group backs their BFF up like it's protecting a man from a gun shot. Finally, these pointless demands that are made by people with a time frame too small to make sense. "Leave the country immediately or we will kill you," Sorry, that's not possible choose a different threat. "Surrender the castle now! You have 5 minutes!" Seriously? "Get your leader on the radio!" "Can't, he's sleeping." "DO IT NOW!" People have lives. Pick a different time to zerg on a group. 

My suggestion? Change up your roster. It's the same people in the same group doing the same hostile group but painted a different color with a different name. And stop the damn negativity and the anti-hub hate. The same people that complain about hubs are the same people that complain they can't find people to RP with. And when you have a shitty member, bite the dam bullet and get rid of them if they do not change. 

Another suggestion? If the loot was far more common and there was far more of it, people wouldn't mind the hostility when you can re-gear quickly and get back to RP. It was successful on Namalsk, it can work on Chernarus. It will shut down the "ma gearrrrr" argument permanently. 

Finally, Groups need to communicate with each other OOC! On a cordial level. Not a blame game level. The fact that some groups do not just baffles me. 

I don't hate Hostile Groups. I hate shitty players. 

Edited by PATRIOT
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Also could be looked at from a loot-perspective. At brass tacks, you don't really have to do things like bandit unless you want too. Not that there's anything wrong with that, as it's an RP server, but when you can find your equipment and cooperate so easily to survive in DayZRP, it makes little actual sense as to why you'd do things such as raid, pillage, and plunder. That's usually where ideology comes in, with ___ faction trying to ___ the other factions. Madlib whatever words you'd like, probably has been done before.

Creative ideas are still possible, so I find it particularly eyeroll inducing when it's just another nationalist/communist/bikergang/psychward group wanting to cause terror/conquer/subjugate/befeared. Like, what, you think your special? My character has dealt with your type before, mans ain't scared.

Just gonna pop off one example: Starving bandits. A group of starvers dedicated to getting their 3 days a meal in. Can't eat any food looted, can only eat food gotten from infected or players. Gives a real reason to bandit for a realistic reason, and sort-of addresses the issue in regards to plentiful supplies in our lovely third-world country by deliberately not interacting with such things. 

Just... I dunno. Think of something new? I think the people are just tired of seeing the same thing like everyone else. Would much rather be robbed by a starving man than a "creepy" serial killer or ideologue. 
 

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2 hours ago, Mike said:

In my opinion the main reason why it's difficult to run/play a hostile group on DayzRP in 2021 is because people have lost the ability to differentiate between OOC and IC.

Just to add on to this. I agree with this fully and it's a problem no matter where you RP. I used to do Hl2RP on Gmod back in the day, and while I can safely say this community is better it's still an issue.

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49 minutes ago, Para said:

You know what the biggest motivation killer is for those of us that have regularly done hostile groups? And yes you aren't going to like who it involves, but unfortunately I can only state it in the most respectful way possible: Massive fucking zergs of combined groups forging alliances instead of taking losses on the chin and changing their roleplay style, even for a few days.

I agree, and I also think it's more complicated than that. On one hand, it makes sense to join forces against a common enemy. On the other hand, it can hurt rp when done in the extreme.

I think that fundamental problem is that certain strategies and skills, such as being a strong pvp group for example which many hostile groups HAVE to be, give a group such an advantage over others that basically, the hostile group can almost always win. You could say that that is "realistic", and perhaps it is, but this isn't real life and people will lose interest in playing a game where they lose almost every time. Many people lack the communication skills to articulate that the problem isn't that they lost, the problem is that they stop having fun when they lose (or feel like they lose) EVERY time. It's not so much that the hostile groups are doing something wrong in this case, it's fair that they win. But this causes problems in the long run i think.

Possibly a solution would be to encourage lots of ooc communication between groups, especially when there are hostile storylines unfolding. I notice that groups will often assume that the other groups KNOW what's bothering them, but then it's actually not the case at all. Perhaps inviting opposing groups into each others discords so that there can be more ooc communication would help? Even just having a dialogue via a general discord chat, even if unrelated to the conflict, could go a long way to encouraging better ooc relationships between groups.

Edited by Oryx
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  • Emerald
2 minutes ago, AndreyQ said:

Bro you are the same guy that joined with the Im boys on some random Russo character to attack us while also using a 308 gun. Like I don't disagree with the statement but I can't just not point out the irony in it.

Well that must be because you don't know the past relations mr.q. As for the gun i had nothing else. I'd rather use an M4 or an AK over a springfield as i find that gun in perticular discusting. (not more discusting than the gigantic scar). I'm sure you understand ; )

5 minutes ago, Banksyy said:

Not sure why you included these, because 7 times out of 10 when i meet you in game you're either egocentric because you're with a big group (zerg) or you have a 308 Weapon roleplayer Mebelele, As you said though 'Be the change'...

I had people that wanted to play the game, and i can't really tell my friends that they can't play because of numbers now can i? Idk if you run into the same problem, but i'm sure u understand. As for the .308 gun just read above, but if ur thinking about in general. Well its becasue its meta. idk how many transporters i've seen with .308 or PKPs, but theres many.
 

9 minutes ago, Para said:

The "enemy of my enemy" shouldn't even come into play with regards to that, and given you're friends with them OOC now it's a tad hard to swallow that this was all IC for some of you, you have to understand.

I fully understand that the Martin character i had before being extreamly nationalistic but would ally with chechyans is a bit off, but in the end that char ofc didn't like allying with them, but saw it as a thing he had to do. Yes i was friends with them OOCly, but then again that shouldn't come into consideration ICly.

 

11 minutes ago, Para said:

I did try, most of the things I suggest I brought up whilst I was admin and got shut down. I personally still think the best thing for group negotiations is IC radio having to be in the DayZRP discord to make it similar to how TS functioned. I brought it up with the big man himself and how it would take me all of an hour to set it up with proper group tags but this was apparently "too much effort". I don't think it is too much effort for what it could potentially change (not saying it'd work but hey worth a shot right?).

I don't know how the teamspeak days worked as i wasn't here for that. What you could do is discord DM said person you are talking to. Go into the DayZRP discord in whatever voice chat and negotiate ICly there. Yes its a public place and maybe people'll join which is a pain, but its better than whatever is going on now.

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  • Emerald
Posted (edited)

Yeah I mean it’s pretty much why me and my group stopped playing, can’t do anything hostile on this server anymore without being constantly targeted OOC because you have “bad roleplay” when in reality people get upset when their glass house of roleplay immunity gets a big ol stone thrown into it, people always want to be the main character of the story and get very angry when the illusion is broken.

Edited by ShroudKN
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  • Diamond

I haven't been in many hostile groups myself mainly because I struggle to sound scary and I get enough lag walking, let alone trying to navigate a perhaps hostile pvp situation. However from what I have seen from both personal experience of being on the recieving end as a hostage or staff side, I personally think one of the main killers for a hostile group is OOC salt.

Firefights will happen or hostile situations/interogations in general and then instead of it all staying entirely IC, sadly 7-8 times out of ten it will heap more OOC salty feelings onto a infernal bonfire that bubbles over, people then attack eachother even more on the forums which then results in them wanting to man hunt bob's character down in game because he called frank a stinky pants etc etc. I could be totally wrong and it's just my opinion but I think it's that sort of mentality that after awhile bogs people down, reduces their motivation to play and then boom, group gone because no one wants to play their characters in the group no more.

Ways to go forwards?

1. Leave the OOC salt at the door 🙏 We are all here to have fun at the end of the day

2. Echo'ing other suggestions, be creative in character concepts and group ideas! Why are they hostile?

3. Try different ways of going about being a more hostile group, perhaps tear them down from the inside with sneaky characters? Find out people's weaknesses and exploit them that way for example "Bob hates fish so leave him tied up as a hostage in a room of dead fish" 🐟 There is so much scope for roleplay opportunities rather than just point and shoot ^^

Message from a salad over, thank you for reading 😄 🥬

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  • Emerald

From my experience as a cultist pvp monkey, OOC drama has the highest K/D when it comes to hostile groups and by the looks of it there's no end in sight.

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2 hours ago, ShroudKN said:

Yeah I mean it’s pretty much why me and my group stopped playing, can’t do anything hostile on this server anymore without being constantly targeted OOC because you have “bad roleplay” when in reality people get upset when their glass house of roleplay immunity gets a big old stone thrown into it, people always want to be the main character of their story.

You know. That last part get's me because I agree with it so much. I'm not sure what the solution is to get people to realize that they aren't the main character of DayZRP. I would like to believe nobody is. The more characters that are apart of the world and not trying to be the world, the more immersive the gameplay is going to be. That's not to say you can't have a character with their own motives of course, just that you shouldn't walk around acting like nothing bad can happen to you because just like in real life, some people may throw a wrench into that idea and you'll pay for it if you aren't prepared.

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