RP Base raid and defence

[Cyfear]

So this is a subject that i was just wondering about and there seems to be a mass of opinion on the matter.

Its not an actually situation, but a random thought based on previous experience.

If i'm out and about. looting, RPing, being a generally constructive member of society (sometimes) and then i return home. Upon arrival i find some random, who has not Roleplayed with me or my group and has no connection, either breaking in or inside my base. What can i do?

My thoughts are that they haven't RP'ed, so i'll not waste mine and just shoot the invader dead before they get the chance to shoot me but between the rules, the muddy water and the rights and wrongs, i was wondering what really is acceptable when discovering someone is raiding you with littleor no RP.

 

All thoughts and comments are welcome, i think this is a healthy debate and is in no way argumentative, just a nice friendly chat.

 

Cheers all,

Cyf

Edited April 30, 2020 by Cyfear

[Blakeh08]

I think both parties should RP it out than PVP it out to add some tension between groups/people 

[Vaetherium]

just an idea: results depending on whether or not the raider is part of a dynamic or official group? official group with multiple people, best to initiate (would be wise if they outnumber you anyway)

dynamic group, shoot 'em?

 

just some ideas, switch em up or whatever, but I do think having to initiate on someone who's actively breaking into your home (or already gained access) isn't necessarily fair

[Cyfear]

Both valid points. An imbalance between them not Role-playing into your base and you having to role play them out puts the defender on the right side of the ruleset, but on the wrong end of the offenders gun, you just lost an advantage in a gun fight and chances are, since Roleplay isn't there priority, they'll shoot you first 

[TheMcgregor]

This is a very slippery subject which I do not believe many know the exact answer to. IMO if someone is breaking into OR is inside your base it should give immediate kill rights however IRL I don't think I would just shoot straight away given the situation I would at least ask what the hell they thought they were doing.

 

Try and roleplay it out but make sure you have the upper hand - call in for backup over radio if your friends are nearby - and if you're outnumbered ask yourself would you confront 2-3 armed people if you had returned on your own?

Edited April 30, 2020 by TheMcgregor

[ItsJet]

16 minutes ago, Cyfear said:

My thoughts are that they haven't RP'ed, so i'll not waste mine and just shoot the invader dead before they get the chance to shoot me

This would be an invalid kill.

If someone is breaking into your base, you must inform them that it is your base, and they must continue breaking into your base, before you have kill rights on them. When in doubt, initiate. 

In the end, go for the RP over the kill. 

[Heisenburg]

Personally, if someone is attempting to break into/entering a broken into base, they should accept the fact that the owner may come home to find armed people inside their home, suggesting these people are there to forcefully take your supplies. In a real life situation you would more than likely shoot them on sight, and having to say "Hey bro quit doing that and leave" honestly ruins immersion and limits the tension that could be felt on both sides.

Say an attacking group, or just a random group that thought they'd take a look inside enters a secured or broken into home, there would be tension in that sense not knowing whether the owner was still holed up somewhere, or simply waiting for the raiding party to let down their guard. The defending group may come back to see their locks cut off, or see people inside/on top of their home. The defending party then enters stealth mode to get the jump on the intruders in order to eliminate the threat, and, let's be honest, if a small group of say 1-2 people is being raided by a group larger than themselves, there is no way in hell they'll be able to survive taking an intruder captive when they say "Put your hands up raider scum." Even if the person you initiate on complies, you will more than likely get swamped by the rest of the intruders and your interaction with these people will be minimal. Now, imagine the defending part may openly fire on intruders. The defending party of 1 or 2 people could easily sneak in, undetected, and pick people off, constantly changing positions and making pinpointing a defender nigh but impossible. This would make base raiding much more intense, as attackers would have MUCH more reason to post guards watching for these people to come back. And these slight changes in how the two parties interact would form immersive role-play for the both of them, as it's no longer a waiting game to see if someone initiates and more of an active and natural form of hostilities between the two groups.

In all reality, most anyone raiding your base is prioritizing gear or a fight over RP. When you come to a base and enter unannounced or begin to raid it, you are there to hold up and/or steal from the people inside. That, in my opinion, should be considered a hostile action, and would be considered initiating hostilities with the residents in a real life scenario. I believe that the current rules regarding base defense should be altered, as they are extremely unrealistic, and in my opinion very frustrating to deal with as someone who has taken part in many different base defenses that have included nearly any scenario I can think of.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Heisenburg

[Rover]

Super short answer:

You don't get defender rights unless:

• They know its your base
• They know you are home
• They take a hostile action against the base. (Sawing a lock, hopping a wall, etc).

 

[Vaetherium]

1 minute ago, Rover said:

Super short answer:

You don't get defender rights unless:

• They know its your base
• They know you are home
• They take a hostile action against the base. (Sawing a lock, hopping a wall, etc).

 

so if we're inside, they know it's our base, we're conversing with them, and they're attempting to break in, we can let off shots?

[Para]

Just now, Vaetherium said:

so if we're inside, they know it's our base, we're conversing with them, and they're attempting to break in, we can let off shots?

If you've approached someone at your base, told them it's yours and you're THERE in person, and they attempt to saw the lock, hop a wall or anything else involving raiding it, yes you have kill rights. It's a hostile action committed against a known victim. (Keep ruleplay in mind when exercising kill rights, sometimes it's not right to use valid kill rights over roleplay.)

[Vaetherium]

Just now, Para said:

If you've approached someone at your base, told them it's yours and you're THERE in person, and they attempt to saw the lock, hop a wall or anything else involving raiding it, yes you have kill rights. It's a hostile action committed against a known victim. (Keep ruleplay in mind when exercising kill rights, sometimes it's not right to use valid kill rights over roleplay.)

gotcha, spaciba

[Rover]

5 minutes ago, Vaetherium said:

so if we're inside, they know it's our base, we're conversing with them, and they're attempting to break in, we can let off shots?

If you are conversing with them, from inside the base, they know you own it. Therefor if they try to break in, you are allowed to protect yourself. 

They are not allowed to do anything about it, as they didn't initiate and their actions could easily be seen as trying to bait an initiation from you.

Raiders shouldn't be faffing around with being unclear about what they are doing. If they want to break in, they should initiate properly and make it clear what their intentions are. If they don't, that is on them.

[Cyfear]

So when they don't know its my base, don't know that I'm there. Just breaking in?

Personally, a raid is a hostile action. They have initiated when they began a raid. 

[Para]

1 minute ago, Cyfear said:

So when they don't know its my base, don't know that I'm there. Just breaking in?

You don't have rights. You'd have to converse with them, explain etc. or failing that initiate.

[Rover]

Just now, Cyfear said:

So when they don't know its my base, don't know that I'm there. Just breaking in?

Then you can't do anything about it, until you've satisfied the criteria I listed in my first post.

Walk up to them "What are you doing, this is my base." 

They will hopefully either:

A) Stop and move on with their lives, probably roleplay.
B) Initiate on you and try to hold you up. 

Or you could just walk up and initiate formally yourself and try to take them hostage. 

 

If they keep trying to break in after that point, you have covered your bases. You've made them aware its your home, you've made them aware you are there. Any further attempts to break in is a hostile action and you can protect your base.

[Truemonkh]

47 minutes ago, Rover said:

Super short answer:

You don't get defender rights unless:

• They know its your base
• They know you are home
• They take a hostile action against the base. (Sawing a lock, hopping a wall, etc).

 

but wait, if I see someone sawing my lock off as I walk up to my base, I can snipe them in the dome? did I get that correctly?

Also my dog is cuter than yours Rover

[Rover]

7 minutes ago, Truemonkh said:

but wait, if I see someone sawing my lock off as I walk up to my base, I can snipe them in the dome? did I get that correctly?

Also my dog is cuter than yours Rover

 

No, you can't shoot someone sawing your lock off as you walk up to it. They don't know its your base, and you weren't home.
You would have to walk up to them and announce your presence, and its your base. If they stop, no defender rights. If they keep sawing into the base, you've satisfied the criteria and their actions are now hostile actions.

 

No dog is cuter then Clifford.

[Cyfear]

But if that guy is sawing into your base and doesn't know its your base, surely it's just to get your gear, much like @Heisenburg said. Therefore a breach of the ruleset already? 

[Hofer]

3 minutes ago, Cyfear said:

But if that guy is sawing into your base and doesn't know its your base, surely it's just to get your gear, much like @Heisenburg said. Therefore a breach of the ruleset already? 

I don't see how that has any relevance or even makes what Rover said invalid. You can rob a base for whatever reason you like, as long as it makes sense for your character.

[Cyfear]

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting the comment was invalid. Not at all. I was putting a different perception on the situation. I'm not here to disregard any comments nor argue the rules etc. Just a valid discussion. It came up as a thought because our base was raided a short while ago by someone and when we discovered who it was, there was no connection and the persons character is claimed to be a trader. It got me wondering about defences etc and what I'd do if I caught them in the act. Especially when considering the ruleset. 

[Hofer]

My best tip would be to always initiate if you're not sure what's best or within the rules. With an initiation there is almost nothing that can go wrong rule wise.

[Truemonkh]

3 hours ago, Rover said:

 

No, you can't shoot someone sawing your lock off as you walk up to it. They don't know its your base, and you weren't home.
You would have to walk up to them and announce your presence, and its your base. If they stop, no defender rights. If they keep sawing into the base, you've satisfied the criteria and their actions are now hostile actions.

 

No dog is cuter then Clifford.

Okay I get that, but to me the rule should be changed since people breaking in somewhere clearly know what they are doing and if they are caught red-handed then maybe you should get rights on them. Just an opinion though.

This one is https://tim-und-struppi.fandom.com/wiki/Struppi

Edited April 30, 2020 by Truemonkh

[BenRyan]

Quote

Hostile actions are player interactions where you or your group members lives are threatened by other players, you are forced to do something against your will under threat of violence, someone is stealing from you, [...]

4.1. Hostile actions or initiations must be done personally and on specific targets

The stealing part is fullfilled in my opinion if somebody is actively breaking into something. I mean in every country around the world it is considered theft if you perform an action of breaking into a somehow sealed room or case. I think it should be comparable to ingame as well seing as everyone should be well aware that a sealed room or whatever belongs to somebody and therefor it is considered theft to break into it by force. Should this not already be the initiation onto the owner? Since the target is also pretty clear to the thief, this being the owner of the base or house i break into?

[Truemonkh]

4 minutes ago, BenRyan said:

The stealing part is fullfilled in my opinion if somebody is actively breaking into something. I mean in every country around the world it is considered theft if you perform an action of breaking into a somehow sealed room or case. I think it should be comparable to ingame as well seing as everyone should be well aware that a sealed room or whatever belongs to somebody and therefor it is considered theft to break into it by force. Should this not already be the initiation onto the owner? Since the target is also pretty clear to the thief, this being the owner of the base or house i break into?

YES! THIS!

As a side note, in certain states in America you have "stand-your-ground" laws, right? If you'd spot someone breaking into your house, are you allowed to shoot them?

[Rover]

2 minutes ago, BenRyan said:

The stealing part is fullfilled in my opinion if somebody is actively breaking into something. I mean in every country around the world it is considered theft if you perform an action of breaking into a somehow sealed room or case. I think it should be comparable to ingame as well seing as everyone should be well aware that a sealed room or whatever belongs to somebody and therefor it is considered theft to break into it by force. Should this not already be the initiation onto the owner? Since the target is also pretty clear to the thief, this being the owner of the base or house i break into?

The issue becomes when you need to draw a line between where something is stealing and something isn't.

The intention of the server is roleplay. Not killing. By saying you can dome anyone that touches your base when you aren't there or not, you are promoting PVP and killing, not actually roleplay.

 

Consider your base to be a backpack. When you drop your backpack in the middle of town, a player can not grab it and start running away without giving you kill rights. If I put my backpack on the ground, he knows it is my backpack, and he knows I am present, therefor he is taking an active hostile action against me and my belongings by stealing from me.

 

If I drop my backpack, and then climb to the top of a building and perch there with my sniper rifle can I then ventilate anyone that touches it? No, thats stupid. Because they aren't taking a hostile action against me.

 

Your base is not a castle, your loot hoard is not protected, you do not gain rights from someone breaking in if you aren't there, and if they don't know its yours. 

 

1 minute ago, Truemonkh said:

YES! THIS!

As a side note, in certain states in America you have "stand-your-ground" laws, right? If you'd spot someone breaking into your house, are you allowed to shoot them?

Please do not try to insert real life castle doctrine laws into a roleplaying server.