Kings Ridge - Neutral Party

[Ryan Shepherd]

Hello everyone. 

We all know there is a dispute on going with a recent ruling that @Phoenix group 'Kings Ridge' is currently neutral. Many disbelieve this but many also believe this. There is zero point to arguing back and forth on discord for over an hour trying to read 20 people responding 40 times.

The ruling:

Every group leader should carefully discuss their views as a group. Only one responce will be allowed per group, make it a good one and not a wall of text. Based on every group submitting their PoV, @Roland would be suggested to take into account everyones views and make a verdict based on those views should this ruling be final.

I will be posting PoV later as I am currently out.

This is the only way I see this being solved fairly and swiftly.

[Luca]

To clarify, because I'm about done with this stupid drama:

Letting someone into your camp isn't being allies. Any group can come to our camp, we don't discriminate.
Conversing with someone at our camp is not being allies.
503 hanging out at our camp sometimes doesn't mean we're "housing" or "harbouring" bandit groups either. It also doesn't make us allies.

503 have been reasonable in this and haven't attacked our camp. They haven't forced us to pick a side or told us we can't give group x medical aid. They've respected our neutrality.
And when someone comes to you saying "I need to speak to 503 ASAP because NATO just robbed me and they're setting up a roadblock" and asking me to let 503 know that said person wants to speak to them and what it's about isn't being allies with 503 either.

I have their frequency just as I have nearly everyone else's frequency. I can contact whoever I want. I wasn't setting them up, I wasn't ratting anyone out. 

I simply went to roland to ask for an opinion on the entire situation unfolding and his stance on it. I didn't single anyone out, I also asked about 503 and a situation we were in at the beginning of the hospital with them that resolved itself. I asked for an outside opinion, that is all. I did not at any point tell roland to message group members and tell them to stop. I merely wanted an opinion on the matter. Roland asked me if I had talked to AndreyQ about the situation, I told him I tried and it was shut down. He then messaged people.

I'm done with the drama. You guys can come and do whatever hostile RP with our group. We don't receive special treatment that stops us from being able to be robbed or initiated on. What you cannot do, as Rolle stated is force us to change our group ideals.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Phoenix
Adding on and simplifying

[Roland]

[AndreyQ]

I wrote a big wall of text on the Kings Ridge page so go read that if you want some in depth analysis about what happen 1 time.

I shall put some points here that to me show that the group is not neutral. (I do wish to mention that I understand that certain members have kept their neutrality however having some that did not will unfortunately reflect on the group as a whole).

> Phoenix told the 503 in game that they can camp outside their base to capture NATO. This is not a neutral standpoint. There should have been zero interference or advice given to the 503 in regards to them searching for NATO around town.

>Realize told Phoenix info that NATO forces are in Gliniska while 503 were around town searching for NATO in order to rob them. Phoenix relayed information towards the 503 which in turn made them head that way resulting in a FF between us and 503. Giving info to a group in regards to another while aware that there are hostile intentions between the 2 is favoritism. You are aiding one side, this case 503, with crucial information that may lead to death/capture of NATO personnel. This is again not a neutral standpoint. The aid may not be physical but information such as location of the people you are hunting down is definitely choosing to helping one party over another.

>People from Kings Ridge going on dates with 503 members. The one I personally know of is Phoenix going on a date with Martin from 503. I believe there are others but @Watchman probably knows more than me on that one. Going on dates with people from a hostile group known for being bandits by like 90% of the server is not really neutral. If you don't wish to be part of conflict then don't start hanging around with bandits more than what the goals of the group describe that means giving them medical help when they require or if they are around the base.

Regardless of these points, it's clear Roland does not share the same vision as me on the matter at hand. What I see as not neutral he sees as neutral so there really isn't anything to do.

Edited February 26, 2020 by AndreyQ

[StrawberryJam]

I understand the idea that forcing a group to abandon their values 'or else' is an problem, and why. My question is whose values are more important than others? The main focus here seems to be 'the doctors are neutral, and attacking them because of that is not okay because neutrality is a group goal'. 

My group began with a goal of finding and punishing people who were neutral during our time in Chernarus. Just like the neutrality of Kings Ridge, it is a group goal of ours. People were upset OOCly but the answer given to them was to handle the problem ICly, since it was in fact an IC problem. I have no intentions to attack the hospital, but my point is this; yes, attacking the hospital and forcing ultimatums conflicts with their core values, but doesnt telling groups like the Nameless not to do the same thing to them? 

The other point I'd like to make is the opportunity that Kings Ridge here has to change the dynamic of the server and create some awesome RP opportunities. For instance, my character has heard of @AndreyQ and to this point has liked what hes heard alot, and just kind of assumed we would get along if we met. However now, he doesnt at all agree with a hospital being attacked. For quite some time the server has been black and white, boiled down to everyone vs the 503. @Phoenix and the doctors have a great opportunity to change that, and create some more dynamic, gray relationships between groups, but only if we lean into it and let the RP happen. 

Basically TL;DR, I get that forcing someone to change there values and constantly attacking them for that is not okay, and if its constant, it limits roleplay, but I also believe that completely telling a group they have to sit back and watch is also asking them to change their values. I believe that one or two times the issue could have been handled IC and led to some great RP trying to solve it all out. 

 

[Skeeterbolt]

I think that the question not yet posed that should be answered is thus: Does this rule apply to ALL neutral groups on the server, or this one specifically?

If the answer is YES, it applies to ALL neutral groups; unless they change their goals or take a hard stance IC toward one group or another, then there shouldn't be a problem.

if the answer is NO, it only applies to this group and no others, then there is a huge problem.

I would appreciate more clarification on this @Roland, and I'm sure others would appreciate it also.

[Luca]

1 hour ago, Skeeterbolt said:

I think that the question not yet posed that should be answered is thus: Does this rule apply to ALL neutral groups on the server, or this one specifically?

If the answer is YES, it applies to ALL neutral groups; unless they change their goals or take a hard stance IC toward one group or another, then there shouldn't be a problem.

if the answer is NO, it only applies to this group and no others, then there is a huge problem.

I would appreciate more clarification on this @Roland, and I'm sure others would appreciate it also.

We do not receive special treatment.

As stated in rolle's powerpoint, it's a generalization. You cannot force a hostile group to be heroes, a hero group to be hostile or a neutral group to be either.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Phoenix

[Marik]

First of all; I don't see this as an attack on King's Ridge. It's good that the Council is finally being used to discuss these kind of matters rather than just providing feedback for prefabs. I feel there should be some sort of a middle way; but that middle way should not be dicated by out of character motivation; what is being asked from Roland here is that some of you break character which is where I believe is the biggest issue with most of you. 

 

My view

These things should be handled by in character measurements; if things are taken too far out of proportion and only then should there be any intervening by an Admin Team. Why don't we see this as a opportunity for hero groups like the Nameless/Danes to question the morality of those that are attacking doctors. (Which is a breach of the Geneva Convention regarding Medical neutrality) Make this some amazing roleplay; because there is so many opportunities here. 

 

 

[GaryCash]

Has anyone from the Kings ridge ever killed anyone or drawn a gun on anyone?

Edited February 26, 2020 by GaryCash

[Luca]

3 hours ago, GaryCash said:

Has anyone from the Kings ridge ever killed anyone or drawn a gun on anyone?

We had 1 instance with an old member who acted on his own accord and against our leadership decisions and drew a gun on a few Russians in our camp. I was told about this and the member was removed from the group due to breaking our code of conduct and we have since spoken to him and resolved any issues. He believed it was the right thing to do at the time, which it wasn't. I wasn't online for it and neither were most others but it was dealt with accordingly and we do not draw guns on anyone or attack anyone. The most we will do is defend ourselves. We do not provoke or attack, draw a gun on anyone or shittalk anyone.

[CJBB]

5.0.3's opinion:

Firstly I would like to say 5.0.3 has no allies. We do not rely on people to assist us in fights or conflicts in any shape or form. Reason why we are known to be fighting against everyone in livonia who is looking for a scrap. That was announced since day 1 of our arrival. As a group we tend not to include neutral groups such as kingsridge in our hostilities due too the conflicting RP styles, Unless we have a real reason to do so. We find it more enjoyable this way as a group. 

In my eyes King's ridge is a neutral group. Sure they give us checkups and medical treatment. but they would do that to anyone that comes into their camp. Being an-pobal, Joyce, corporation literally anyone. My character is currently suffering from a health problem that is causing him to have frequent checkup with the doctors there, and so far I am really enjoying the roleplay. 

Now the so called INFORMATION. 

The information that is apparently being told to me. Kings ridge has not given me any information or supplies that could affect any sort of hostile conflict. We was already heading in that direction around about the same time one of my men was told as we finished what we was doing in zalesi(I think we went there to rob cartel but they wasnt there), They did not even hand up the information to me. And the information they gave me was something someone requested to be told to me inside of the hospital. And the person who requested the DR's give to me was apparently apart of the nameless who was clearly waiting for us within the region of the glinska robberies. We noticed someone hiding in a bush on the side of the road and decided to pursue, ending in a big gun fight not even knowing if it was nato or not.

Not at any point have they given me information. Me and my members have attempted multiple times to get information/supplies/weapons out of kings ridge and the only response i get is "No We are neutral", we have just accepted it, now we just sit around when passing through town building up friendships with the kings ridge people we roleplay with.

The DATE

One of my members did indeed go on a well... lets call it a date. One date with the leader of this group. And I joke around with going on a date with another member to make this uncomfortable. either way. Its just their personal characters developing. Even though this one date happened doesnt mean the whole camp should be rocked up on and shot up for walking down the road and talking about the sunset with a person. I fail to see where this comes into play at all. 

There has been many many dates between Hero groups and Hostile group leaders. Same with neutral groups and hero groups. Back in the day DR hopes group and the cartel(poor beret). WP and Legion Corp.  Zalesi people and Moretti's... Coldwater Bobby and Clowns Lyca.... I mean the list would go on and on. I fail to see how a group should be completely dog brained on for this at all when literally no one gave a shit when other groups did it and this is one date where they ended up not even taking it further.

Hostilities

They have never assisted us in any form of hostile act upon another player. They have always made their self not involved. We also would give them the heads up that we are about to attack the place so they leave and do not get caught in the cross fire (To make situations less messy) Plus its just common decency to do when they people who are treating my characters illness are out of harms way so I can continue to be treated. I do not see this in assisting them or being assisted by them. Or any form of an alliance. 

Supplies

They have given me some medication to keep that pesky cold away. 

 

Now the argument that we are always at the hospital, Only around 10% of the 5.0.3 actually like being there, so most of the time we do not have many people there. Majority of our members are around the prison or other parts of the map. It confuses me because in last nights gunfight there was 1 or 2 people in the hospital where as everyone else was eating and roleplaying at the prison. If your planning to attack a group why attack a camp down the road and not the place they actually live. But I think its due to the fact the prison is a fortress and I agree because of that, puts a lot of people off attacking us. 

 

Now even though the group is neutral and this is where I sit on the fence a bit. I do see multiple paths of roleplay kings ridge could of went down instead of going to roland. But on the otherhand I can see why they would go to Roland. Because it may start at 5.0.3 but anyone could then walk in gun the place up and be like "You cant help x,y,z" Effectively making the group unable to treat almost anyone that walks into their camp due to risk of being placed on someones side. where neutrality to me is not excluding everyone it would be treating everyone the same. But in the regards of roleplay I think it would of been better to be roleplayed out first before it became an issue, once it became an issue for that the group and made them unable to perform its goals, then the issue should of been looked into. 

But to wrap it up. I do not think kings ridge have any sort of immunity to hostile roleplay. from what I see here... all that is requested is that you do not demand they stop medically treating people. And obviously to avoid constantly attacking. But I do not see roland saying at all that hostile groups can not attacking kings ridge I mean making them immune to robbery would be stupid. so hostile RP is still okay. 

Id apologise if this upsets some people. Just my honest view on the situation, I must admit I am biased here too considering i am directly involved with kings ridge. 

[Zanaan]

12 hours ago, AndreyQ said:

I wrote a big wall of text on the Kings Ridge page so go read that if you want some in depth analysis about what happen 1 time.

I shall put some points here that to me show that the group is not neutral. (I do wish to mention that I understand that certain members have kept their neutrality however having some that did not will unfortunately reflect on the group as a whole).

> Phoenix told the 503 in game that they can camp outside their base to capture NATO. This is not a neutral standpoint. There should have been zero interference or advice given to the 503 in regards to them searching for NATO around town.

>Realize told Phoenix info that NATO forces are in Gliniska while 503 were around town searching for NATO in order to rob them. Phoenix relayed information towards the 503 which in turn made them head that way resulting in a FF between us and 503. Giving info to a group in regards to another while aware that there are hostile intentions between the 2 is favoritism. You are aiding one side, this case 503, with crucial information that may lead to death/capture of NATO personnel. This is again not a neutral standpoint. The aid may not be physical but information such as location of the people you are hunting down is definitely choosing to helping one party over another.

>People from Kings Ridge going on dates with 503 members. The one I personally know of is Phoenix going on a date with Martin from 503. I believe there are others but @Watchman probably knows more than me on that one. Going on dates with people from a hostile group known for being bandits by like 90% of the server is not really neutral. If you don't wish to be part of conflict then don't start hanging around with bandits more than what the goals of the group describe that means giving them medical help when they require or if they are around the base.

Regardless of these points, it's clear Roland does not share the same vision as me on the matter at hand. What I see as not neutral he sees as neutral so there really isn't anything to do.

@Roland unsure if you saw this, but if it is true, it definitely skews their 'neutrality' substantially, and goes directly again their goal stated here

 Remain neutral with all factions at all costs and stay out of external conflicts between groups - (Achieving - Ongoing)

If they are providing supplies, information, and attack positions to one group, that is hardly staying out of external conflicts.

[CJBB]

5 hours ago, Zanaan said:

@Roland unsure if you saw this, but if it is true, it definitely skews their 'neutrality' substantially, and goes directly again their goal stated here

 Remain neutral with all factions at all costs and stay out of external conflicts between groups - (Achieving - Ongoing)

If they are providing supplies, information, and attack positions to one group, that is hardly staying out of external conflicts.

Apart from that person was from the opposite group asking for that information to be passed on. With the same enemy group waiting to ambush. If you go up to someone and say “pass on a message for me” and you do it, doesn’t make you an ally of a group or not neutral. 

[GaryCash]

Neutral groups should not exist unless we are planning on full on instituting safe zones

 

a neutral group can just serve as a proxy base for another group

 

its essentially like having an offshore bank account, where you face no repercussions for using it or taxes

 

using this logic it would make sense for every group to link up with a ‘neutral’ group and use them as storage  

 

@Roland