NLR changes

[Cirtex]

Picture if you will: You're walking Through a field to get to a town, you've got some starting equipment, a backpack, maybe a pistol lacking a clip, a hatchet. and you get jumped and killed by wolves. No one was around, just you, a field in the middle of nowhere, and now your dead body is in the middle of a field to despawn. you respawn in a random location. the night is coming to a close so you decide to get a decent vantage point to watch the sun rise. you find a field and walk into it. you walk around it a bit for, let's say you watch the whole sun rise, you're there for 20 minutes. moving around as you do so. you enjoy watching the sun rise. you head off, loot a nearby town, and log off for the day. next day you sit down to log on, and you've been banned for 3 whole days because your dead body was in that field. and you had no idea because you were watching the sunrise. and you quickly discover that upon attempting to file an appeal to give context, NLR bans are not at all appeal-able. This is what the current NLR system will do. 

A few statements to keep in mind: this is a Roleplay community, and we're ultimately here to have fun. With that being said let me ask a few questions: 
Who's RP experience was hindered or broken by this person returning to this random field? What was the point of the ban? was the ban ultimately worth it? 

I recently purchases the Linovo DLC for Dayz and I began playing on the Linovo DayzRP server. 3 IRL days in I get killed by a Z. No issue really. so i followed a road, found a town, started looting, and got shot by a guy because i ran away. alright. no big issue. headed into a town and looted it up. and then logged off for the day. 

2 days later i got banned for NLR. go to appeal, no ability to appeal. previously i thought "who reported me? and why?". upon looking at ban and reasoning, it appears they now track player potions and at the staff discretion decide who gets banned and who doesn't as they get a ping for those who break NLR. which means every 10 minutes your potion is logged and it gives a ping for those who are within 1000 meters of their body. 

Let me remind everyone here: we're here to have fun. and roleplay. if you're not here for that then please tell me what the bloody hell you're doing here.

So. I'm not at all agreeing with these terms. if you die by anything for any reason what so ever, you can be banned. even if you spawn near you body. now i asked the staff about this and they told me "the options you have when you die is to either wait an hour before going anywhere, or ask an admin to figure out which direction you should go. you know what i call that? I call that RED TAPE. no one likes red tape, it's not fun, it's not necessary, and if anything it doesn't add to any sort of RP experience. 

Now let's look at why NLR exists. it exists to keep people from going back to their bodies and looting them, or going back to firefights to finish the fight, or to keep people from going and saying "YOU SHOT ME!" and then opening up on that player. lemme preference by saying that i 100% whole heartedly agree that if any of the above happen, yes, you've broken NLR, you should get a 3 day ban. 

HOWEVER, in a more subtle situation. lets say you're chatting with a stranger. and you die and that stranger sees you die. that person then goes on to overwatch the town and sees you looting around. This is a situation i'd personally still consider to be an NLR break. 

But here's a question: who the fuck cares? did it hinder the RP experience? did it break immersion? were you actively pulled out of your character because of it? if the answer was no then the NLR doesn't matter! AT ALL. 

If no RP was broken, harmed, or anything of the sort, then yea, NLR waived. a good example of this is when i ran with a group. we died every now and then, but we would break NLR and head back. we wouldn't loot our bodies or anything, we just returned and continued the RP. No body got reported for NLR, we all just had a good time and continued to RP out our characters having fun. 

nobody cared. nobody had issue with it. why punish someone, for something, if it affected literally nobody? 

The entire point of this post is to change the NLR rules. Previously it was just on a report system. however now the Staff are just doing it willy nilly without context as to what actually happened, they have ping markers that they get every 10 minutes that go to a log. 

To be clear here is what i believe should be counted as a breaking of NLR: 
Returning to a firefight/are with players that were actively hostile and re-engaging with them
Returning to an area that you had previously visited with a stranger. 
LOOTING YOUR OWN BODY PERIOD
Getting shot by a player and returning to that town.


and these are situations that i would describe to be able to be waived:
Dying in a town and spawning near it, then going into town to re-loot
if in a group over radio, Breaking NLR to return to them to simply continue to RP. (unless a third party is involved.)

and those are just some examples. 

Here's the thing. previously NLR got reported mostly only for like, combat scenarios, which made sense. however now people are getting banned left and right for accidental NLR. for 3 whole days, without appeal, I don't care how you swing it that ain't fair in the slightest. 

Things that need to be added: Body looting. if a player loots their own body within the time span, that's NLR, and if it shows up in the log, yes ban, do it, that's fair. however, the rest of it should be via reports. If a player has taken as issue and has STOPPED HAVING FUN BECAUSE SOMEONE BROKE NLR AND IT'S ACTIVELY INHIBITING THEIR EXPERIENCE, then they should report it. if they don't that's their choice, if it doesn't actively ruin RP for someone (which might i remind you we're all here to RP and have fun) then what was the point of the punishment if, in the eyes of everyone who was actually involved with the NLR break, nothing was done wrong? 

The system needs to be returned to going off of reports only. that way people who have issue with it can report it, and people who go back and loot their bodies themselves are given the ban as that shows that you had the knowledge of where you died. 

Now Lemme say this. if you die in cherno, but you spawn near electro, and you go back to cherno, and you're not in a group, i believe that's susceptible for a Warning and maybe 12 hour ban. because instead of looting Electro, you for some odd reason went back to Cherno. 

SO Summary of points:
Rampant NLR breaks are more common than you think, however they more often than not do not hinder the RP experience.
People who take issue with NLR, and see it should report it, if they don't that's their choice. 
a log should be added to show if people loot their own bodies within the time slot, as that is clearly breaking NLR. 
The new log that was made should be used as a data sheet that is accessed with an on-demand basis, it shouldn't act as a sheet of people for a judge to decide who get's bans and who doesn't.

Let me make my stance clear: I want to have fun. i don't want to go through red tape to go looting, and i definitely don't wanna have to be away from my friend in game for a whole HOUR because a wolf got me or a zombie got me. However I don't think people should return intentionally to the areas they died if one is readily available, i don't think people should loot their own bodies for ANY reason what so ever, and I ABSOLUTELY do not think you should return to an area intentionally if you were in a fire fight.

However i also believe that the mods shouldn't go off of their 10 minute ping system, as their are too many gaps in it, and a lot of the bans that come from it will be pointless and worth nothing, and will only make people like me angry mad. Go back to reports. use the ping system as a tool, not a chopping block, use it as needed to back up arguments and cross reference shit to see if it lines up.

 

@Roland I'd like to have a voice chat with you to discuss these points. 

Argument to take away: What's the issue with it if no-one is affected by it? 

Just to take down arguments before they arise: Yes they can add a log to show when people are looted and by who, i was in a chat with staff and one of them literally said "Yea that's a mod". 

My argument is: if it actively goes against the "I don't know the events leading up to my death" meaning: location/cause/location of body, then yes it's a NLR break. however. as long as you don't interact or interfere with elements that lead up to your death, then you're fine. 

If someone has an issue with it let them report it, otherwise a lot of unjust bans will get brought down on perfectly fine Roleplayers who've. overall done nothing wrong.

Please discuss.

[Eagle]

NLR is fine as it is expect there should be a distance for how far you can go.

[Cirtex]

1 minute ago, Eagle said:

NLR is fine as it is expect there should be a distance for how far you can go.

My limits are this: If someone takes issue with the NLR, or you looted your body, or if you returned to a firefight, or something similar to along those lines, then yea, you broke NLR. other wise, it didn't effect anyone and you should be fine, however with their new system they are dishing out unjust NLRs to players who have done nothing to bring down RP

Edited February 23, 2020 by Cirtex

[Roland]

Honestly TL;DR, but I know what this is about.

The issue with your idea is that death doesn't matter, so you'll just run into zombies and if you die, "oh well, I guess I'll have to run back to pick my stuff up". It's not about RP experience of others, but how players act around threats, how they approach them and general mentality towards character death.

The point is to make it work so that death matters, so that you lose something aside from time when you die, so that the gear you had has a chance to despawn and we have a gear sink for the loot economy.

[Cirtex]

1 minute ago, Roland said:

Honestly TL;DR, but I know what this is about.

The issue with your idea is that death doesn't matter, so you'll just run into zombies and if you die, "oh well, I guess I'll have to run back to pick my stuff up". It's not about RP experience of others, but how players act around threats, how they approach them and general mentality towards character death.

The point is to make it work so that death matters, so that you lose something aside from time when you die, so that the gear you had has a chance to despawn and we have a gear sink for the loot economy.

That's bad RP. not NLR

[Eagle]

Just now, Cirtex said:

That's bad RP. not NLR

No other way around.

[Cirtex]

Just now, Eagle said:

No other way around.

What do you mean by that?

[G_DateSB]

As the big man has spoken here I would like to add in the discussion we had with other staff present @Cirtex it doesn't matter how you died or how many people are then when you get knocked down / die but In roleplay knocked out you won't remember anything that led to it as you would normally if you hit your head hard enough or have a concussion and knock yourself out in real life. Bug, zombie, player, wolf or anything else if your on your own or not and run back to where you died or are within say 500m or in the area you died itself it breaking NLR. 

We do suggest people coming to the helpdesk if they die and don't know where they are so they can get a member of the GM's or Admins to help them go the other direction or we sometimes advise to log for a hour go do some things and then come back. Regardless the NLR rule has not changed it has been enforced where GM's and admins can keep an eye on the whole matter. if you have further questions I'm happy to answer. I'm sure everyone else will be also. 

[Cirtex]

1 minute ago, G_DateLR said:

As the big man has spoken here I would like to add in the discussion we had with other staff present @Cirtex it doesn't matter how you died or how many people are then when you get knocked down / die but In roleplay knocked out you won't remember anything that led to it as you would normally if you hit your head hard enough or have a concussion and knock yourself out in real life. Bug, zombie, player, wolf or anything else if your on your own or not and run back to where you died or are within say 500m or in the area you died itself it breaking NLR. 

We do suggest people coming to the helpdesk if they die and don't know where they are so they can get a member of the GM's or Admins to help them go the other direction or we sometimes advise to log for a hour go do some things and then come back. Regardless the NLR rule has not changed it has been enforced where GM's and admins can keep an eye on the whole matter. if you have further questions I'm happy to answer. I'm sure everyone else will be also. 

I brought what you said up in the above. Red Tape, no one likes red tape, no one wants to go through red tape. and with that being said. assuming you DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED AND YOU SPAWN OUTSIDE THE PLACE YOU DIED, BUT YOU DON'T KNOW THIS THEN WHY WOULDN'T YOU GO IN AND LOOT SAID TOWN HMMMMMMM... Small paradox. so if you wanna get into RP reasons then i'm gonna be real quick to shut that down, 

On top of that i made it clear that what you said is not the point/reason of this post, at all.

[G_DateSB]

I would ask you kindly to calm down please for one. Number two as stated by myself and other staff members at the time it does not matter if you are in roleplay or not. If you die in a middle of a field and run back to your body to get your gear regardless it is NLR even if you run to the same area and don't loot your body it is still NLR.

If your on your own in a field and you get killed by a wolf and then run in the area bump into people after you die still counts as NLR. 

Regardless even with no RP or not who can say no one saw what happened in the field. The NLR rule is there and it works with what @Roland brought in and it works.

I'm not here to argue with you but im here to explain why it happened to you. That being said if you have anything else you would like to discuss with myself or any other member of the staff team or the community for that matter please go forward. 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by G_DateLR

[Ducky]

Loot is not important, stop breaking NLR.

 

/thread

[Cirtex]

6 minutes ago, G_DateLR said:

I would ask you kindly to calm down please for one. Number two as stated by myself and other staff members at the time it does not matter if you are in roleplay or not. If you die in a middle of a field and run back to your body to get your gear regardless it is NLR even if you run to the same area and don't loot your body it is still NLR.

If your on your own in a field and you get killed by a wolf and then run in the area bump into people after you die still counts as NLR. 

Regardless even with no RP or not who can say no one saw what happened in the field. The NLR rule is there and it works with what @Roland brought in and it works.

I'm not here to argue with you but im here to explain why it happened to you. That being said if you have anything else you would like to discuss with myself or any other member of the staff team or the community for that matter please go forward. 

 

A: you came into this chat, i'm not asking you to argue, i'm asking for people to discuss. 
B: this system can and will cause unjust things, and will actively make players quit if there is a 0 tolerance policy for such minor things that have 0 consequences other than the ban that is artificially placed on them
C : I understand how the rule works right now, you do not need to remind me, i'm not mis-informed or uninformed, i'm attempting to create a more balanced system players can enjoy and have fun in RP rather then getting banned for 3 whole days over something that was overall, inconsequential 

3 minutes ago, Ducky said:

Loot is not important, stop breaking NLR.

 

/thread

I never said anything about loot being important. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Cirtex

[Ducky]

Just now, Cirtex said:

I never said anything about loot being important. 

If your loot is not important, then why return to your corpse and break NLR?

There is never any reason to return to your body.

[Cirtex]

1 minute ago, Ducky said:

If your loot is not important, then why return to your corpse and break NLR?

There is never any reason to return to your body.

you clearly didn't read the post well enough.

If you loot your body. you break NLR. I said that multiple times.

I'm not opposed to NLR. however i believe changes need to be made in the way its handled to keep from unjust bans being dished out.

[MysteryBB]

You die -> You return -> Ban

You die -> You don't return -> Keep playing

[G_DateSB]

Even going near where you died is breaking NLR. Anywhere close to where you died or the area is classed as NLR

[Cirtex]

1 minute ago, Mystery said:

You die -> You return -> Ban

You die -> You don't return -> Keep playing

not the point of the post.

1 minute ago, G_DateLR said:

Even going near where you died is breaking NLR. Anywhere close to where you died or the area is classed as NLR

Again... not the point of the post? you still seem to be attempting to educate me on how it works... again...  which is not what i'm trying to convey... i'm trying to make changes to it so that people who accidentally enter the town without knowing, or simply want to have a fun time with friends without having to wait a whole HOUR because a Z got them are punished with a 3 day ban. 

[Banshee]

@Duckyhas said it all.

If loot isn't the reason to go back to your body, then what is?
Are you gonna get any RP from walking back to your body? No.
Does it make in-character sense to go back to where you 'died' and loot your own corpse? No.
Then why would you?

If you don't return to the area that you died in and/or re-involve yourself in the situation that lead to your death then you will not be banned, simple as that.

 

Gear is only temporary, roleplay is forever. Never forget that comrade.

[Cirtex]

4 minutes ago, Banshee said:

@Duckyhas said it all.

If loot isn't the reason to go back to your body, then what is?
Are you gonna get any RP from walking back to your body? No.
Does it make in-character sense to go back to where you 'died' and loot your own corpse? No.
Then why would you?

If you don't return to the area that you died in and/or re-involve yourself in the situation that lead to your death then you will not be banned, simple as that.

 

Gear is only temporary, roleplay is forever. Never forget that comrade.

Look at the field example. with the current system that's in place, you'd get banned because you unknowingly watched the sun rise in a field where your dead body was. and you had no idea your dead body was there. 

The point of this thread is to snuff that unjust ban, that might i remind you is UNAPPEALBLE, out. 

I'm not complaining about going to get gear off a body. i even said IF YOU LOOT YOUR BODY THAT'S GROUNDS FOR A BAN. I said that. READ THE POST.

Also, if we're going to go "In character". when you die you leave all memories of your time leading up to your death. so if you spawn outside the town you died in you therefore have no memeory that you died in that town, Checkmate i don't wanna see that argument again because it doesn't add ANYTHING or even apply to what i'm trying to convey

Edited February 23, 2020 by Cirtex

[cheeks]

What's the point in going back to where you died?

[Ducky]

1 minute ago, Cirtex said:

Look at the field example. with the current system that's in place, you'd get banned because you unknowingly watched the sun rise in a field where your dead body was. and you had no idea your dead body was there. 

The point of this thread is to snuff that unjust ban that, might i remind you is UNAPPEALBLE, out. 

If you are scared of accidently walking towards or in the direction of your dead body, you are more than capable of recieving aid in helpdesk to avoid that.

 

It is your responsibility to prevent returning to the area of your death, take measures into your own hands to prevent breaking the rules.

[G_DateSB]

So you die in a field and you spawn in and want to watch the sun rise and get hit with NLR. I would advise no matter when you die I would advise to go to Helpdesk and ask where you died and ask what way to run. 

[Cirtex]

1 minute ago, Ducky said:

If you are scared of accidently walking towards or in the direction of your dead body, you are more than capable of recieving aid in helpdesk to avoid that.

 

It is your responsibility to prevent returning to the area of your death, take measures into your own hands to prevent breaking the rules.

However let me add previously that this wasn't as issue before hand. Why must i now go through red tape to access information just so i can play in peace? this as well takes up Staff time. and assuming EVERYONE did this EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY DIED. they'd be overwhelmed and wouldn't be able to keep up porperly.

[Banshee]

1 minute ago, Cirtex said:

- snip -

The system detects NLR breaks and can show if someone simply walked nearby and/or away from the area, or directly towards the area.
If you spawn within the boundaries of the NLR break and walk away from the area, you will not be banned. However, if the logs show that you actively walked towards the area and/or your body, you will be banned.

It's not that hard, and if you are ever unsure about your location and/or afraid that you are breaking NLR then you can always hop inside the help-desk.

[Cirtex]

3 minutes ago, G_DateLR said:

So you die in a field and you spawn in and want to watch the sun rise and get hit with NLR. I would advise no matter when you die I would advise to go to Helpdesk and ask where you died and ask what way to run. 

yea buddy that's red tape. people aren't going to do that, and it wasn't announced ANYWHERE to ANYONE that people have that option, so only when they get hit with an NLR are they then informed that they can. which isn't fair to them