Offline Raiding

[Faygo]

I've been mulling over this for a long time. I'm really looking forward to hearing the community's opinions on this, as I feel pretty comfortable in my own but as always crowd-sourcing something like this is always the best.

 

Currently, OFFLINE RAIDING is NOT against the rules. When a group goes to sleep during the wee hours of the morning, everyone that's anyone can feel free to saw off the locks of their base and help themselves to the things inside without so much as looking over their shoulder. Now, normally I would have absolutely zero qualms about this because it's DayZ and that's the name of the game - taking others' stuff to make it yours and make your group stronger. But recently a lot of awesome, related points have been brought up regarding how difficult it currently is to saw off locks, and also people complaining about hoarding weapons and other items.

 

My take: OFFLINE RAIDING should be against the server rules. Hear me out. I have two really important points I want to convey before you absolutely destroy me, but I think they're very good points.

 

1) OFFLINE RAIDING does not create opportunities for roleplay, nor does it further roleplay or serve a purpose outside of OOCly obtaining gear to hoard.

 - To expand on this point... OFFLINE RAIDING does not create roleplay because you are not interacting with any other players other than yourself and your allies while you are in the process of looting an empty base. Let's face it, there is no roleplay going on when you are raiding a base - everyone's just in discord talking OOCly about what they've found with the occasional paranoia of "who's that?" "Who's this?" "What was that?" 

- Unless the group who performed the raid comes forward ICly and admits to doing it, there is no possible way for anyone to know who offline raided them ICly, and too often does this conundrum lead to metagaming. And said metagaming is a problem that can be avoided with eliminating OFFLINE RAIDING as a legal act in DayZRP.

 

2) OFFLINE RAIDING is powergaming.

- I know what you're thinking; how is it powergaming? Let me explain. If every single individual in a group is offline - whether they are OOCly working, sleeping, making a sandwich, whatever - where is their character? Obviously it would be meta and very poor roleplay to say that whenever you log off your character poofs into an invisible pocket dimension to rest their little head. When someone is offline, you hear it every time you're in game. "They're sleeping." "They're on a hunt." "They're in Chernarus/Livonia." Whatever your excuse is, it's got some kind of justification that suspends disbelief.

But what about when the entire group is offline? ICly, where are they? Characters needs to sleep, that is absolutely true. But what is the IC justification for OFFLINE RAIDING as to why nobody is currently in the base? Most often I hear that everyone in the group is "sleeping." So... Hold on. You mean to tell me that your IC justification during an offline raid is that you somehow managed to hacksaw through however many locks, hatchet apart however many walls, and loot through every locker, crate, tent, and shoe box within the compound/base without waking a single soul?

 

Okay, bud...

 

Or even more absurd - everyone in the group somehow decides it's a grand idea to completely vacate the base at the same exact time every single night.

 

This is a classic example of someone using their roleplay to force a certain reaction or result from another player or group of players without them having any say. Textbook powergaming.

I've seen it, you've seen it, we've all seen it. OFFLINE RAIDING is nothing more than a gear-grab. In the few months I've been participating in the server I have been a part of at least a dozen OFFLINE RAIDS and let me tell you - it's lame. What ends up happening every time is that whoever you are beefing with, you offline raid them, then 12 hours later they offline raid you and they get their stuff back. It is a cycle of gear and supplies changing hands repeatedly until finally one group just decides they've had enough and archive themselves or abandon whatever base they've built.

 

So, already I know somebody is going to roll in here with the counter-argument: 

"But Deimos! People should not be hoarding items and OFFLINE RAIDING is one of the only counter measures against that!"

 

I understand and respect that logic. However, eliminating OFFLINE RAIDING from the narrow toolkit of the gear-hunter is not as awful as you might think. It is true that weapon hoarding is a real issue, and I'm sure that Roland is sick and tired of having to edit the loot tables to throw people a bone because someone logged off with 12 M4s a couple months ago and hasn't logged back in since. A solution to this problem may lie somewhere in the cards, but I would pose another point if you'd allow.

 

OFFLINE RAIDING is not the only method of raiding. I think that if we eliminate offline raiding from the playing field, it will force groups to leave their base - because eventually they will need other things that other people have. This, I think, would encourage people taking hostages. Hostage-taking is underrated, and there are always NVFL reports going up about people not wanting to be taken hostage. I think if we tweak some other rules a bit, this could be a very good system. Here are some suggestions:

 

- Taking hostages can be the primary means of infiltrating a base to gain loot.

- If the hostage refuses to open their base to the raiders, they may be executed - and this execution would be a perma kill.

- If the denizens of the base comply with the hostagetakers and agree on an exchange, they can only request an amount of gear equal to the value of the member. For example, a couple M4s, some ammo, maybe a couple stacks of nails. All to be determined. But for the sake of balance, the raiders would not be permitted to demand the entirety of a group's stock in exchange for one person.

 

Let me know what you guys think, please give me your feedback and (constructive) criticism. I don't think these suggestions are bulletproof but I think that with the help of others we could formulate a worthwhile suggestion to the staff.

 

tl;dr OFFLINE RAIDING bad, it's powergaming, it causes more problems than roleplay, and it's dumb. Please make it illegal and let people focus on taking hostages and creating worthwhile, dangerous interactions that will even force groups to interact with each other instead of petty-raiding their enemies while they sleep.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by Deimos

[Luca]

Yay another thread about offline raiding. Because the other ones weren't enough.

As far as I see it, if you build a base or stash shit somewhere it's honestly your own fault if you get raided. It just makes the game so much more interesting. If you're offline, take precausions against your base getting raided or don't make a base in the first place. 

I think it's fine how it is. We shouldn't be keeping tabs on every single person's online or offline status to see if we should raid their base. That is using ooc information which isn't allowed. It's straight up metagaming.

[AndreyQ]

Offline raiding doesn't exist. I raid when I want, if people are online or not I don't care.

[Nozzy]

Bro for real though 

Offline raiding is an asshole move and it DOES NOTHING for roleplay. 

@Deimos nails it on the head. It is powergaming and it does not create ANY FORM of roleplay. All it is are people that are gear hungry trying to break into people's bases and take their roleplay gear. Do people not realize that this eventually will just not make people create roleplay bases/hubs? 

 

I 100% support a trial period of no offline raiding. It would help roleplay on the server immensely 

Edited February 16, 2020 by CraneDriverRP

[Terra]

I dont find "offline" raiding "dumb".

Why would I not break in a base if the owners are not there? And why does a "raid" not allow for good RP or further the RP of the people doing it?

Example: When I am online with my group and we stumble upon a base and we decide to break in, we do it while actively roleplaying with each other, based on IC interactions and not like you claim, driven OOC. It allows us, in the mentioned scenario, to remember the "break in", roleplaying it out. It sure does further the RP for every member in the group in many certain ways.

If you decide to have a base and you dont want people to break in, then make sure it is guarded all the time. Breaking into bases, taking things from other people, is a realistic scenario which I am happy that everyone is allowed to play out.

To yout suggestion: -1

3 minutes ago, CraneDriverRP said:

Bro for real though 

Offline raiding is an asshole move and it DOES NOTHING for roleplay. 

@Deimos nails it on the head. It is powergaming and it does not create ANY FORM of roleplay. All it is are people that are gear hungry trying to break into people's bases and take their roleplay gear. Do people not realize that this eventually will just not make people create roleplay bases/hubs? 

See my example above.

Offline raiding is fine & even good RP. Just because it does not further your RP, does not mean it does not at all.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Terra

[Nozzy]

4 minutes ago, AndreyQ said:

Offline raiding doesn't exist. I raid when I want, if people are online or not I don't care.

Aren't you part of the people that raid bases? Of course you're gonna say no 

the fact of the matter remains that you don't go raiding someones base when they are offline because you are "looking for roleplay" you do it because you are GearRPing 

[Elmo]

Bases are primarily used for storing gear and as a crutch for people who aren't that good at PvP. Raiding is hard enough as it is, there are very few tools for raiders to use, there are multiple methods for base-builders to use to keep raiders out of their homes and overall siege equipment is very poor. 

In addition to this, how would we even be able to determine what an offline raid is? What if I find a base in a forest and all the owners are logged out, I can't possibly know this so I raid them, then they report because they're mad and I catch a ban for something I wouldn't be able to know. This would be far too much of a burden for raiders to carry and is entirely unfair to hamper them more than the game already does, base-building comes with big perks and big disadvantages, you can't have it both ways.

[Terra]

Just now, CraneDriverRP said:

Aren't you part of the people that raid bases? Of course you're gonna say no 

the fact of the matter remains that you don't go raiding someones base when they are offline because you are "looking for roleplay" you do it because you are GearRPing 

I even raid bases when I am alone.

So the next time I see my group I can RP that out. Great RP.

 

[Luca]

3 minutes ago, CraneDriverRP said:

I 100% support a trial period of no offline raiding. It would help roleplay on the server immensely 

Don't put your hopes up because it's not going to happen. The admins would have way too much to monitor.

It's a game guys. If you can't deal with the fact that people are going to take your shit while you're "asleep" essentially, don't horde.

It really isn't rocket science to not horde gear. Just keep what you need on you. 

[Nozzy]

1 minute ago, Phoenix said:

Don't put your hopes up because it's not going to happen. The admins would have way too much to monitor.

It's a game guys. If you can't deal with the fact that people are going to take your shit while you're "asleep" essentially, don't horde.

It really isn't rocket science to not horde gear. Just keep what you need on you. 

Well that goes both ways. It really isn't rocket science just don't offline raid and focus on roleplay instead. Because i can tell you one thing. The people that have bases full of gear are not the ones focusing on gear over roleplay

[AndreyQ]

1 minute ago, CraneDriverRP said:

Aren't you part of the people that raid bases? Of course you're gonna say no 

the fact of the matter remains that you don't go raiding someones base when they are offline because you are "looking for roleplay" you do it because you are GearRPing 

Currently I don't raid random bases as it would contradict the goals of our group. But I have raided a lot of bases in my days. There is no way of knowing whether or not someone is online or not unless you know who owns the base and their steam name which legit 90% of the cases I don't. I find a base in the middle of the woods and no one is there, that doesn't mean they are offline. They could be looting 3 kms away or just jogging back home.

[Luca]

1 minute ago, CraneDriverRP said:

The people that have bases full of gear are not the ones focusing on gear over roleplay

Firstly, that made absolutely no sense.

secondly, Explain to me why you need a base full of gear when you can run around ingame with just the necessities and no military grade stuff and still actually be able to have an amazing time, meet people and roleplay. 

We are here for the roleplay, right? So why do people need to horde gear? Make me understand? Do you need your grandfather's 10 AK's to RP with?

As an EX GM I know for a fact nothing will be done about offline raiding because it simply isn't a problem.

[Ducky]

Offline raiding threads are always fun to read.

 

Your points are:

1. It doesn't further roleplay

It does infact further roleplay, one way to effectively fight your enemy without having to engage them in combat is to run them dry of their supplies. Theft is a tool and drives hostilities, and sure, while the other party may not be acutely aware of who has raided them, they very much are aware that their resources have been stolen.

Im certain there are people out there who consistently raid bases just for the hell of it, but hey, that's part of life too, if your place isn't well enough fortified, expect it to be raided.

 

2. It's powergaming.

Im gonna go ahead and spit this out, if offline raiding is powergaming, then claiming your character is sleeping and therefore no one can take the supplies in his tent is also powergaming, you're forcing others to acknowledge your presence when you aren't infact there.

 

Overall, I think we've had enough discussions about offline raiding, and at this point it's getting pretty boring, if you want to hoard gear, secure your place properly or hide it instead of complaining about it being stolen while you weren't there to protect it.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Deimos said:

I'm sure that Roland is sick and tired of having to edit the loot tables to throw people a bone

Also this isn't exactly how it works, currently there is an infinitely spawning number of rifles on both maps, however it will only spawn very few of them at a time.

Example: 2 M4s are somewhere on the ground, ready to be looted. Someone then picks one up, and another will spawn after an unspecified amount of time. Its a small amount in the loot pool that restocks very slowly, and it does not count weapons currently in use or stored IIRC.

[Dusty]

11 minutes ago, CraneDriverRP said:

The people that have bases full of gear are not the ones focusing on gear over roleplay

Uh... I don't know about that one chief. The only people caring about gear are the people spending their time looting and hiding in their base. The only people complaining about gear are the people who have giant bases with more gear than they could ever use.

Edit: I love you nozzy

Edited February 16, 2020 by Dustemane

[Eagle]

Simple give rights to anyone raiding your home if you log in during the raid removing the weird awkward who da fock are you?!

But having it as a rule that it shouldn't be allowed is not needed.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Eagle

[Mrdarkfox18]

My question is when does it become Offline raiding? How are you suppose to know when someone is on? Ill broken into bases at 3pm and no one was home and I even scouted the place for a few hours? What about people who play in the EU? Its day time for them, other parts of the world it is night time. 

 

[neom]

Can we not do this again, 

Just click page 2 and then 3 and so on, every week there is another offline raiding thread.

Im really sorry your stuff got stolen when you were not on but in the words of @Banshee”a robber doesn’t turn up to your house knock on the door, introduce himself and the start to take your wares in front of you” 

No the nasty man or woman (2020 now) waits for the perfect moment when NO ONE IS HOME. To come in and get out. 
I have no sympathy for anyone who has a base and gets raided when your not about, build better defensives.

 

BUT 

 

here is a question I put to you, you say offline raiding what if your camp is in cherno for example and you and your guys go to tisy and I break in, how is that any dif to being raided when your not online 

[Luca]

3 minutes ago, DStacey said:

My question is when does it become Offline raiding? How are you suppose to know when someone is on? Ill broken into bases at 3pm and no one was home and I even scouted the place for a few hours? What about people who play in the EU? Its day time for them, other parts of the world it is night time. 

 

You don't know if someone is online or offline unless you have them on steam really. We're not gonna go out of our way to check their online status before raiding a base. If there's shit to take, we take it.

[Cuchulainn]

If I see a base that looks pretty tempting and is raidable imma raid it end of, if theres someone there thats a bonus and if no one is there unlucky bud. How am I supposed to know if the owner is offline or just out on a loot run too? Also lets say I've been prepping to raid the base, getting the supplies etc. Then the owner goes offline, makes for some awkward rp with my mates eh? "Sorry boys lets not raid it now"

[Mrdarkfox18]

Just now, Phoenix said:

You don't know if someone is online or offline unless you have them on steam really. We're not gonna go out of our way to check their online status before raiding a base. If there's shit to take, we take it.

That is why I ask when does it become offline Base raiding? We talk about offline base raiding,  but when does it become offline base raiding?

 

[Brayces]

This is will not change.

Ignoring the basis of if Offline raiding is good or bad, how the hell is it going to be regulated? Say we do ban offline raiding. Okay, how do we catch people? You want the Staff Team to sit and sift through hours of logs to find out if X person from X group or dynamic was online when person B decided to raid even though X person wasn't online during the case at the time? Like ... Near impossible. Even if you create a script that checks groups to see if they're online when a base is broken into that's theirs(which you have to determine by some magical mean) by someone that doesn't impact non-grouped people.

What about dynamics? They have no common denominator to tie them to a Group (like a group tag).

I think the better decision is to let loot go. The only thing that I think is important is outfits (not weapons or bags or anything) just outfits. Since customization is low on DayZ a person can stand out by the clothing they choose to wear and for that we have the item store. But beyond that? Nah, let it go. Do as Elsa does.

Hoarding gear in a base serves no purpose, really. Besides you aiming to gather it. And if gathering gear is a goal then raiding is a GODSEND to you. Now you have reasons to go gather more! Because someone stole some! I'm not saying don't collect gear, but I'm just saying if you have a base people are gonna break in and steal. It's gonna happen.

 

[Fae]

Haven't we had enough of these pointless threads by now? 

Offline raiding wont stop, no matter how much people whine about it. Theres no way to police it. 

Stop acting like your 500 stored M4s are detrimental to your roleplay...

[rp]

Here i have a solution for you, stop hoarding gear and noone will offline raid you.

[Luca]

5 minutes ago, DStacey said:

That is why I ask when does it become offline Base raiding? We talk about offline base raiding,  but when does it become offline base raiding?

 

I mean, there isn't such a thing because it isn't a rule.

[Mrdarkfox18]

3 minutes ago, Brayces said:

 

Hoarding gear in a base serves no purpose, really. 

 

It really depends on the RP of your character, For explain @cjackson821 Dr. Jack He collects medicine, for the Medical RP side and Gives a lot of Food and Medicine out to people. We hang out to things as lights to Light up the clinic for people who are lost or hurt.