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Hollows

Invalid Execution | Between VMC and Push

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Server and location: S1 in the compound between VMC and Push

Approximate time and date of the incident (SERVER TIME): 20 November 2019, 02:58

Your in game name: Charles Hackett

Names of allies involved: Jackals

Name of suspect/s: Noah Russo, second the logs will show

Friendly/Enemy vehicles involved (if any): N/A.

Additional evidence? (video/screenshot): TBD.

Detailed description of the events: So I log into the server and go into a compound and ask for food before I begin my journey up north thinking nothing of it. Two people show me to it and I go to grab some food, and as I leave I ask," Any of y'all been marked yet?" They ask," By who?," and before I can give a definitive answer I am initiated on. I put one hand up in a sign of compliance as I don't remember the key to surrender because I don't usually do it until they tell me OOCly which one to press. They then ask me if any of my friends are around, and I go for a bluff and say," Yes," and that," They're telling me to tell y'all that if you don't let me go they will kill you." Without further RP, the guy in the red shoots me for what I assume is an execution. I stand still to give the benefit of the doubt of a mis-click before the guy in the black ponco shoots me until death.

Reporting because I was a compliant hostage and was executed before any roleplay could be developed, ruining what chances I had to actually roleplay in the situation.

Edited by Hollows

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Alright so POV time ( I swear I do this so many damn times a day) So Me, @silvermoongaming and @Replaceful were running around doing some monkey shit when we go to the soup Kitchen, While in there this dude rolls up and immediately is just off to me. His character seems trolley right off the bat (I dunno anyone who rolls into a group of 3 people and just talk the way you did.) So anyway, after being able to tell what kind of person he is he randomly asks if we had been marked. Me knowing IC thats a jackals thing decide to initiate as My character does not like them. After we initiate he Either Meta Games as he was able to apparently talk through his Radio and if he was truely Bluffing then this is just Blatant NVFL. 

 

Id like to point out a couple things for the lovely Staff Team

 

4.1 All initiations and hostile actions as well as their demands and conditions must be made clear and unambiguous to all involved players. Hostile actions or initiations must be done personally and on specific targets who must be aware who the attacker is, for example they cannot be done remotely through radio or PA system.

 

1 hour ago, Hollows said:

I go for a bluff and say," Yes," and that," They're telling me to tell y'all that if you don't let me go they will kill you."

This is in no way following Rule 4.1 as quoted above

 

Also, If it is a bluff you took a big risk which ended up Failing and you got killed. You end up initiation on 3 armed people by yourself and you end up dying so Id like to quote the following 

 

3.2 Your character must behave realistically and appropriately to the different situations you participate in, keeping the current world situation and context of post-apocalyptic world in mind. Do not act in a way that indicates no value for your characters life and survival. For example, attempting to kill people when heavily outnumbered, excessively talking back or insulting someone when taken hostage, or knowingly running into an area of active hostile engagement when not involved in the fight. Characters found guilty of breaking this rule will be permanently marked as dead.

 

 

I would also like to quote the following Rule as if he is not bluffing and did have people around him then he was able to talk through his radio with his hands in the air Breaking Rule 3.6

 

3.6 Using OOC communications like Discord, TeamSpeak or others to transmit or receive information related to in game situations is only allowed when you have a personal radio item in your inventory. As soon as your character loses the ability to speak or use the radio - for example has died, is unconscious, has been gagged, is surrendering (F1 or F2 animation), is handcuffed or had your radio item or clothing containing it removed from your inventory - you may not receive or transmit any in game information through OOC communications. While in presence of other players all such communication should also be transmitted in game using "double mic" mechanic. This means transmitting both through in game VOIP and external software simultaneously.

 

With all the above said, We executed him because he attempted to initiate on us causing us to kill him because of it

 

 

 

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POV Garrett Loyd

me @MasonnWB and @silvermoongaming all go to the soup kitchen and some guy comes up and asked if there was any food and asked if we got marked, noah initiated on him and I point my gun at him as well. he put his hands up and says "My buddies told me to tell you guys to put your hands up "He seemed to be talking on the radio with his hands up"so noah shot him In the head then I finished him off.

Edited by Replaceful

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POV Riley Lux 

 

Me, @MasonnWB and @Replaceful were chilling in a open compound and were about to leave when a guy comes in and asks for food. We told him where it was, after rummage through the compounds things he stands Infront of all of us and says “you guys been marked yet... S or W” we were pretty much like “ehhh what?” At that point they draw guns on him and tell him to put his hands up. I backed up and went to the house where I crouched and waited for return shots after the man had stated his boys were around. After this I kinda stopped paying attention to the guys and started looking for any others that might shoot. Next I hear the shots going off and we bolt out the gate and run for cover. 

 

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KILL LOGS

Spoiler

02:59:13 | Player "Charles Hackett" (DEAD) killed by Player "Garrett Loyd" with AK-74 from 5.16667 meters 

HIT LOGS

Spoiler

02:59:09 | Player "Charles Hackett" hit by Player "Noah Russo" with AKS-74U from 4.12091 meters 
02:59:10 | Player "Noah Russo" hit by Player "Garrett Loyd" with AK-74 from 5.37525 meters 

CONNECTION LOGS

Spoiler

01:54:39 | Player "Noah Russo" is connected
03:16:19 | Player "Noah Russo" has been disconnected
03:20:07 | Player "Noah Russo" is connected
06:21:27 | Player "Noah Russo" has been disconnected

23:44:07 | Player "Riley Lux" is connected
03:16:19 | Player "Riley Lux" has been disconnected
03:18:49 | Player "Riley Lux" is connected
05:30:03 | Player "Riley Lux" has been disconnected

23:15:08 | Player "Garrett Loyd" is connected
03:16:19 | Player "Garrett Loyd" has been disconnected
03:20:45 | Player "Garrett Loyd" is connected
06:23:23 | Player "Garrett Loyd" has been disconnected

02:54:12 | Player "Charles Hackett" is connected
03:16:19 | Player "Charles Hackett" has been disconnected

CHAT LOGS

Spoiler

02:58:51 | Chat("Noah Russo"): //f5

Calling in the following individuals for their POV and any un-edited video evidence they may have

 @Hollows - Charles Hackett - OP
 @MasonnWB - Noah Russo - POSTED
 @silvermoongaming - Riley Lux - POSTED
 @Replaceful - Garrett Loyd - POSTED

 

@Hollows do you have any video evidence from your point of view? Did you have any allies online at the time or was it all a bluff from your side?

@MasonnWB / @Replaceful why did you decide to end the encounter so quickly? You were inside a fenced area with a building. You had control of your hostage as he was complying.

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Simple as, he initiated on us and there is no way for us to have known he was bluffing so for our safety we execute him and run away, being in that fenced in area, you can see into it from all directions so it really wasn’t that safe and my life felt threatened and figured the best way to get out was to execute the guy telling us his boys were gonna kill us. 

 

Edit: spelling 

Edited by MasonnWB

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Yeah felt the same way as @MasonnWB after he said "in fact they are telling me this is your last chance or all of you are gonna die"

Edited by Replaceful

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Now that I have seen the video and the POV's it is clear that only @MasonnWB had initiated on me. The others with him are not in his approved group and therefore gained no rights on me whatsoever as they had not initiated. Pointing a weapon without any consequence is not an initiation and they had no right to rely on the actual initiation. Therefore it is RDM on @Replaceful's side.

The next point is that that what I had said was NOT an initiation, it was merely an attempt to get out of the situation and was only aimed at those who had actually captured me, which again, we see as only being @MasonnWB given that he was the only one to have initiated. Talking in a hostile manner once in an attempt to get out of a situation is not enough to give you rights. At no stage did any warn me to not talk like that, nor did they even attempt to roleplay the situation (e.g. try to negotiate, call my bluff, threaten me if I didn't tell my group to back off etc). I cannot initiate for other people and I did not do this. Logs should show our group was spread over the map and I was not in comms so I have no idea if anyone was near. Logs will also show that none of them were ever shot at by my group members. I would also like to add ruleplay to the report.

I was a complying hostage the whole time and was no threat to either those who had rights or those who didn't.

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Probably should've posted this sooner but I am willing to talk to OP via Discord if he wishes

 

Too add Im not talking on this report any furthur unless requested by Staff. Thank you

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42 minutes ago, Hollows said:

-Snip snippety-

As Hofer already asked - Do you have any video evidence from your PoV?

In the OP you say that your video evidence is "TBD".

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12 minutes ago, Conor said:

As Hofer already asked - Do you have any video evidence from your PoV?

In the OP you say that your video evidence is "TBD".

Yeah, I thought I had shadowplay on when I was killed but unfortunately I forgot to turn it on when I logged in.

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We was all together, doesn’t matter if we are apart of a group I asked if you had any friends near by and you said yes they are all around then you said in fact they are telling me this is your last chance or all of you are gonna die" hints the word all, you clearly knew we were all together.

Edited by Replaceful

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Summary:
@MasonnWB, @silvermoongaming, and @Replaceful visit the "Soup Kitchen" near VMC and run into @Hollows at the entrance to the compound.  Hollows asks if the group has been marked yet, causing MasonnWB to initiate.  Hollows puts one hand up, to which MasonnWB demands both hands, and, after some explanation, Hollows complies.  Hollows is questioned whether or not he has friends in the area and he replies "Oh yeah, they're all around, and in fact, they're telling me to tell you this: this is your last chance or you're gonna fucking die if you don't let me go."  In response, MasonnWB shoots Hollows once and Replaceful finalizes the kill.

Rulebreaks:

  • @MasonnWB, you attempted to kill a fully compliant hostage and @Replaceful actually killed him.  @Hollows complied with your demands and answered your questions to the fullest extent and posed absolutely no threat to you.  On top of this, the four of you were in a secure, walled in location that is defensible against the friends Hollows claimed to have.  Instead of pursuing the potential roleplay avenues opened by your hostage, the two of you opted to kill him.  MasonnWB's attempted kill and Replaceful's kill will be deemed invalid because of this.
  • To address the argument that Hollows initiated on you, we have deemed that his bluffed attempt to scare you into releasing him was not an initiation, so neither of you would have gained defender rights.  Hollows said the demands of his bluffed friends whilst still complying with your demands and posing no threat, nor did he actually raise the demand the two of you believed to be an initiation.  He was attempting to open a new avenue of roleplay as your hostage and was met with bullets as a result.  Even if his words were deemed an initiation, prioritization of your hypothetical defender rights over roleplay with someone that you are holding as a compliant hostage is not behavior we wish to encourage.
  • Additionally, one final, important point to address is that @Replaceful did not gain rights in this situation at all@Replaceful, MasonnWB is the only person in this situation that initiated and, because you are not in an official group with him, you do not share attacker rights gained by his initiation.

Evidence:

Spoiler
Quote

4.6 If you successfully capture a player through a hostile action and then take him into your custody, he is now considered your hostage. You must do everything in your power to keep your hostages alive and in a relatively good health. That includes protecting them from external threats like zombies and leaving them with a realistic chance of survival when they are released. A character that is taken hostage may be executed once for a hostile incident that happened in the past where the hostage was personally responsible for, or participated in a death of your ally. In any other circumstances, hostages may only be executed in the following scenarios:

  • Hostages do not comply with your demands after repeated requests or try to escape.
  • Hostages pose a direct threat to you or your group, for example by picking up a weapon when not allowed to.
  • Hostages do not value their life, for example they repeatedly talk back or insult you despite being told to stop.
  • Approved group of the hostage or their allies refuse to negotiate or open fire on hostage takers.
  • Demands from negotiations with approved group of the hostage have not been met after a reasonable time has elapsed.

 

Suggestions:
@Replaceful, when engaging in hostilities in a group that is not approved, you must always initiate individually.  Attacker rights cannot be shared dynamically and failure to initiate individually will cause the kills following to be invalid.

@MasonnWB & @Replaceful, the two of you were far too quick to the trigger in this hostage situation.  When a hostage is compliant and does not satisfy the criteria laid out by rule 4.6, the last course of action you should take is execution;  you should always focus on furthering roleplay over anything else, including executing your hostage.  When situations like this arise in the future, explore the avenues of roleplay opened up by a bluff of friends coming to help your hostage rather than killing them.  Engage in hostage negotiation or even a firefight if it comes to that.  Any chances of furthering roleplay in this situation were cut short by your decision to kill @Hollows.

Verdict:
@MasonnWB | Attempted Invalid Kill | GUILTY.  2 day ban, 10 warning points.
@Replaceful | Invalid kill (roleplayed) | GUILTY.  3 day ban, 10 warning points.

Signed by @Peril & @Hofer

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