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APositiveElmo

Addendum to griefing rule

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Hey guys, scumbag Elmo here with another suggestion for the rules.

So it seems like there’s confusion regarding the enforcement of the griefing rule and the duty of care raiders supposedly have. Whilst I think it’s a bullshit policy, if it’s gonna be enforced it should be clearly stated in the rules that the duty of care exists. Even veteran players such as myself find this confusing and counterintuitive, so imagine what our newer members must think when they get slapped for griefing when there was no chance for them to know they were doing wrong.

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Do you mean care for hostages, or raiders' responsibilities when they're cracking bases? Now I feel like I've missed a memo *hides a hacksaw behind her back*

 

Edited by TheGlassSpider

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I don't think there is any need for clarification in the rules, I think it falls under common sense that when you raid a base with the sole intent to just steal items that you don't trash the place completely and that you make sure to move any items left on the floor into containers.

It's been like this for a good while, what exactly is the change you propose? That we simply let people trash eachothers bases/stashes with no sort of limit or regulation?

Or do you want it to explicitly be stated that one has the duty to put items left on the floor into containers?

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6 minutes ago, TheGlassSpider said:

Do you mean care for hostages, or raiders' responsibilities when they're cracking bases? Now I feel like I've missed a memo *hides a hacksaw behind her back*

It purely pertains to base-raiding. Duty of care for hostages is already established in the rules.

1 minute ago, Ducky said:

Or do you want it to explicitly be stated that one has the duty to put items left on the floor into containers?

I'd rather this policy be discontinued but it seems it won't be for some time. It is enforced and unwritten, people are being punished for it, therefore it requires clarification. Examples of enforcement of this ridiculous rule can be found here:

 

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5 minutes ago, APositiveElmo said:

It purely pertains to base-raiding. Duty of care for hostages is already established in the rules.

I'd rather this policy be discontinued but it seems it won't be for some time. It is enforced and unwritten, people are being punished for it, therefore it requires clarification. Examples of enforcement of this ridiculous rule can be found here:

I disagree, people get punished for unwritten rules all the time, not because they are unwritten but because it falls under a category which is defined.

It should be obvious that leaving items on the ground to despawn when raiding is considered griefing, that should not surprise anyone, it does not need to be clarified what so ever.

Much like we don't need to clarify the 101 million ways you can invalidly initiate on someone.

 

Perhaps a guide on baseraiding is a better choice?, Do's and Don'ts

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I agree, but it won't happen.

I'd love to have an actual rule page people can read and understand easily but it has been stated before that the rules are just generic guidelines that can have their meaning twisted every few weeks based on who does the verdict or if someone has a good/bad day.

Oh well, I can at least act like an internet lawyer from time to time.

Edited by AndreyQ

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Just now, Ducky said:

I disagree, people get punished for unwritten rules all the time.

Bring forth examples and I shall make more threads.

1 minute ago, Ducky said:

It should be obvious that leaving items on the ground to despawn when raiding is considered griefing, that should not surprise anyone, it does not need to be clarified what so ever.

Much like we don't need to clarify the 101 million ways you can invalidly initiate on someone.

Perhaps a guide on baseraiding is a better choice?, Do's and Don'ts

Bit of an over-exaggeration and not really comparable. I'm asking for a line in the rules that says something like: "Assuming no previous hostility with occupants of the raided base, all participating raiders have a duty of care to, where practicable, preserve as much of the raided base as possible e.g. when taking a container, transfer any unwanted items to another container within the base, if available."

A guide does sound like a good idea though to supplement this change. I might write one.

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I for one would like to see some clarity and rephrasing of this rule to make it clearer to newer and experienced players alike.

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I think it’s pretty dumb that we say there is a hoarding issue but when raiding and I take a tent it’s an issue that the items are left out to despawn.
 

I’m not griefing but why should I as someone who is robbing you be required to neatly place all your items back into a tent on the other side of your compound. Or have to find slots in five different tents just to cram in al your useless junk you are hoarding? 

If we’re gonna keep this ruling then there should be something added to the rule. Stealing a tent and leaving the items there is NOT griefing. 

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I must admit, i only knew it was griefing based on multiple and numerous previous reports and i think it should be clearer in the rules for brand new players.

I agree with the griefing though. Hence making the report. Its tough but expected getting yiur shit stolen but having the stuff they didnt want just emptied on the floor is a whole new level of pissed off.

Its like a burglar shitting in your drawers after breaking into your house and taking yiur crown jewels. 

A guide woukd be a good idea ( on many of the rules)

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7 minutes ago, andysuter said:

I must admit, i only knew it was griefing based on multiple and numerous previous reports and i think it should be clearer in the rules for brand new players.

I agree with the griefing though. Hence making the report. Its tough but expected getting yiur shit stolen but having the stuff they didnt want just emptied on the floor is a whole new level of pissed off.

Its like a burglar shitting in your drawers after breaking into your house and taking yiur crown jewels. 

A guide woukd be a good idea ( on many of the rules)

If they stole your tent then why would they realistically place everything neatly back into other containers you have scattered everywhere? Your comparison is a bit laughable. If a someone robs your home they typically trash it in the process of trying to find valuables. They don’t neatly fold your undies and place them back in your designated underwear drawer. It’s not like a robber robbing you then taking a shit in your cabinet. It’s more like a robber just robbing you. 🤣
 

plus no one seems to think about the consequences this might have on the person robbing you. When I raid I make it as quick as possible. In and out in 5 or less. Do you realize how long it would take me to tidy up your nice little camp if I’m required to neatly place everything in different places because you only have so much space in each tent. It’s just not realistic. 
 

I agree that griefing should be a rule break. But griefing is intentionally dumping items for the sole purpose to despawn them. Either as a joke, being vindictive, or just being a troll. It’s not stealing a tent and leaving the items that were in the tent behind. 

Edited by ZeroRP

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I dont consider my comparion laughable at all.

I guess the rule is there to stop abuse of breaking in and just trashing the place and despawning all your rp items  just for a laugh.

The annoying thing is in our report they stole 3 tents that can be crafted with a few twigs and left the spawn tents in place. We easily made upsome new tents but it was the items we had collected for rp purposes just left on the floor as they have no value that was the annoying point.

We arent the first to report this greifing and we wont be the last

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12 minutes ago, andysuter said:

I dont consider my comparion laughable at all.

I guess the rule is there to stop abuse of breaking in and just trashing the place and despawning all your rp items  just for a laugh.

The annoying thing is in our report they stole 3 tents that can be crafted with a few twigs and left the spawn tents in place. We easily made upsome new tents but it was the items we had collected for rp purposes just left on the floor as they have no value that was the annoying point.

We arent the first to report this greifing and we wont be the last

They might be easy for you to make but not everyone knows how to craft certain items. I don’t know 3/4 of the shit added in by the mods we have. My point still stands. If you steal a tent but leave behind the items that’s not griefing. If you pulled all the items out, then unpacked the tent, and left everything on the floor that IS griefing. If they stole your tent for a purpose then they obviously didn’t just leave everything there “for laughs” they took what they needed and left. For future reference and as a way to cover my ass I will just bring a giant ass box truck and then take all your gear you took so long to collect. 

Edited by ZeroRP

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I'd love to have to put back the 10000 rounds of ammunition from somebody's tent into all their separate containers just because I took one of his like 10 tents. Honestly it becomes therapeutic to do this every single time i raid a base.

👍 another great rule with absolutely 0 consequences / implications for the server.

 

Edited by APositivePara

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Guys, dont get salty with me just because someone else broke a rule against us and we reported it.

Take it up with the gms if you dont agree etc

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19 minutes ago, APositivePara said:

I'd love to have to put back the 10000 rounds of ammunition from somebody's tent into all their separate containers just because I took one of his like 10 tents. Honestly it becomes therapeutic to do this every single time i raid a base.

👍 another great rule with absolutely 0 consequences / implications for the server.

 

Maybe just find or make your own tent, if the burden of stealing from others is too much for you. 

51 minutes ago, ZeroRP said:

no one seems to think about the consequences this might have on the person robbing you. When I raid I make it as quick as possible. In and out in 5 or less. Do you realize how long it would take me to tidy up your camp if I’m required to place everything in different places because you only have so much space in each tent. It’s just not realistic. 

In a perfect, realistic world, cars wouldn't despawn if they lacked parts, items would have persistency and I could simply pick up after a base raider after he up and left all my stuff sprawled on the floor. Unfortunately though, this is not the case and dumping stuff on the ground will cause it to be lost. And don't act like time is always against the clock, most raids done are offline, very, very rarely online raids. The two times I have logged on and seen people in the process of breaking down walls, or actually in my base, snooping around. I never have been initiated on, and had people try to raid my settlement via gunfight. ICly, of course i'd be able to hear people breaking down my walls with sledgehammers, shits loud as hell. But once again, to refer to the realism, that isn't the case. 

And keep in mind, if there IS no more space, you aren't obligated to take it all with you. It just asks for you to do your best putting things away where there is space.

Im not advocating for offline raiding to be dissalowed, if you are thinking that. What I AM saying is that if you want to use realism as a justification, it can go both ways. You can't have it realistic only for one group of people. But to get back on-topic, I believe that a guideline, or a base raiding guide, much like a banditry guide, would be a great addition to the server and the influx of new members choosing to participate in DayZRP and its roleplay.

If you'd like, I would be happy to assist in making a player guide and comb through the "Ask the Staff" and solved reports to help gain insight onto base raiding.

 

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If there is space in other tents I get that you can't just despawn stuff. But loads of times the other 10+ tents are filled with junk with only 1-2 slots here and there. Having to sort it all out to place a big item back in is a pain, and people seem to fill their tents up with shit for the sole purpose of it being harder to take with you because if you do it's grieving. 

Also people log in plenty of time mid-raid, and apparently with KOS rights (happened to me earlier today). Chances are that after 1 person logs on to find you raiding people are going to start spawning in all around you. This rule is tedious and i feel like it should only involve items of actual value, like guns or plate carriers.

Edited by Husky.

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1 hour ago, TryaxReck said:

Maybe just find or make your own tent, if the burden of stealing from others is too much for you. 

In a perfect, realistic world, cars wouldn't despawn if they lacked parts, items would have persistency and I could simply pick up after a base raider after he up and left all my stuff sprawled on the floor. Unfortunately though, this is not the case and dumping stuff on the ground will cause it to be lost. And don't act like time is always against the clock, most raids done are offline, very, very rarely online raids. The two times I have logged on and seen people in the process of breaking down walls, or actually in my base, snooping around. I never have been initiated on, and had people try to raid my settlement via gunfight. ICly, of course i'd be able to hear people breaking down my walls with sledgehammers, shits loud as hell. But once again, to refer to the realism, that isn't the case. 

And keep in mind, if there IS no more space, you aren't obligated to take it all with you. It just asks for you to do your best putting things away where there is space.

Im not advocating for offline raiding to be dissalowed, if you are thinking that. What I AM saying is that if you want to use realism as a justification, it can go both ways. You can't have it realistic only for one group of people. But to get back on-topic, I believe that a guideline, or a base raiding guide, much like a banditry guide, would be a great addition to the server and the influx of new members choosing to participate in DayZRP and its roleplay.

If you'd like, I would be happy to assist in making a player guide and comb through the "Ask the Staff" and solved reports to help gain insight onto base raiding.

 

Here’s another problem with you wanting this rule. What is to stop someone from emptying a tent themselves, then reporting the base raider, and then saying “hey this tent was empty, there fore this is griefing” too many problems with this bandits have to be friendly and nice and organize your loot again for you. 

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The rules say:

4.8 Griefing is act of damaging or destroying a player base, storage container, vehicles or their contents using OOC knowledge, ill intent or doing so without IC reasoning that is proportionate to the damage done.

It sounds perfect as it is. If you add an addendum like you propose:

"Assuming no previous hostility with occupants of the raided base, all participating raiders have a duty of care to, where practicable, preserve as much of the raided base as possible e.g. when taking a container, transfer any unwanted items to another container within the base, if available."

It sounds unnecessary, in my opinion. In addition, I would like to say that I don't care about gear, but my favorite robberies are those in which bandits allow me to keep most of my stuff. For example, two weeks ago I had a great hostile encounter with @MouseWB and his Black Roses. They took me and my friends hostages, gave us a job, and, after threatening us, gave us our gear back. They were rude ICly, but it was fun and the experience was great OOCly, because they focused on the RP and on giving a meaning to the situation. They bullied us ICly, but OOC it felt like a joke. This is the sort of experiences that I like in DayZRP.

For the same reason, I think that base raiders should really concentrate on the RP of raiding the base, and not on stealing absolutely everything. Many times big groups of raiders bring a car and steal absolutely everything that they can find inside the base. Even food, and canteens... and this makes me wonder: is this not griefing????

Edited by William89

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Okay, then. First off, i'm gonna talk about your actual argument, so what ill be arguing you on is this:

1 hour ago, ZeroRP said:

Here’s another problem with you wanting this rule. What is to stop someone from emptying a tent themselves, then reporting the base raider, and then saying “hey this tent was empty, therefore this is griefing.” Too many problems with this.

From what I understand, your concern is people taking their OWN stuff out and dumping it on the floor, then reporting it as griefing to get revenge on a raider? Okay. Now, I doubt that anyone would actually do that, but let me humour the situation as it could potentially happen. From what I have seen, staff have logs of all of these things, such as movement logs, placement logs, etc. We also as a community demand video evidence more often than not, so this entire situation could also be avoided by simply recording your gameplay by using a recording software, or simply pressing windows + g on your computer (if you have windows.) 

Basically, just record your gameplay and this whole situation can be avoided. If there is no evidence one way or the other, its marked inconclusive, and the report is closed. This loophole can just as well benefit the raiders as the raidee's.

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Griefing rules are for those who can’t protect their base.

But if they’re going to exist make it much more clear. If I want a tent, I’ll dump the shit in it on the floor to take it, not my responsibility. That’s not griefing, it’s taking what you want with collateral damage. 

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5 hours ago, Ducky said:

Much like we don't need to clarify the 101 million ways you can invalidly initiate on someone.

We dont need to clarify the 101 million ways you can invalidly initiate on someone because we have a clear and concise set of rules on how you can initiate on someone. This is not equivelant to what exists for base raiding, which is a shame because base raiding is clearly one of the premier ways that people play DayZRP. 

 

Let's look at this from another perspective. I, and many people I know, have had their bases raided and had loot left to despawn. We have never reported on this because it is not clearly expressed that this is not allowable. If it is not allowable, it must be expressed in such a way that it is blatantly clear. This is parallel to giving someone a prison sentence for something that is not defined as illegal by law. This is the very reason we have laws in society, so that we can define what is and isnt legal. The same holds true for our community rules in DayZRP. If we are to receive punishment for an action (or inaction), it needs to be clearly defined that this action or inaction is punishable. 

There is something else that I feel should be addressed. There are people that play on this server from all over the world, and across the United States. So, cultural expectations of what is "common sense" breaks down, especially when the "common" part of sense would be that stealing is wrong and therefore base raiding shouldn't be allowed. Now, I'm not advocating for base raiding to not be allowed. In fact, I think it keeps the loot in the game cycling through the player economy. What I am saying is that if we are going to allow base raiding when common sense says stealing is wrong, then we need to define what is acceptable and what is not.

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1 hour ago, NemoNobody said:

We dont need to clarify the 101 million ways you can invalidly initiate on someone because we have a clear and concise set of rules on how you can initiate on someone. This is not equivelant to what exists for base raiding, which is a shame because base raiding is clearly one of the premier ways that people play DayZRP. 

 

Let's look at this from another perspective. I, and many people I know, have had their bases raided and had loot left to despawn. We have never reported on this because it is not clearly expressed that this is not allowable. If it is not allowable, it must be expressed in such a way that it is blatantly clear. This is parallel to giving someone a prison sentence for something that is not defined as illegal by law. This is the very reason we have laws in society, so that we can define what is and isnt legal. The same holds true for our community rules in DayZRP. If we are to receive punishment for an action (or inaction), it needs to be clearly defined that this action or inaction is punishable. 

There is something else that I feel should be addressed. There are people that play on this server from all over the world, and across the United States. So, cultural expectations of what is "common sense" breaks down, especially when the "common" part of sense would be that stealing is wrong and therefore base raiding shouldn't be allowed. Now, I'm not advocating for base raiding to not be allowed. In fact, I think it keeps the loot in the game cycling through the player economy. What I am saying is that if we are going to allow base raiding when common sense says stealing is wrong, then we need to define what is acceptable and what is not.

1. Stealing is mentioned as a hostile action.

2. The rule for griefing already mentions the contents of the items inside containers:

 

Quote

4.8 Griefing is act of damaging or destroying a player base, storage container, vehicles or their contents using OOC knowledge, ill intent or doing so without IC reasoning that is proportionate to the damage done.

If you steal from a base and leave stuff to despawn without IC reasoning, it is considered griefing, it's clearly outlined right there.

How do you avoid leaving stuff to despawn? By putting it into available containers.

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@Ducky

Is it considered griefing if someone wants to steal a tent and has nowhere to place the items in said tent? Is the deciding factor whether there was room to put the items into something else essentially?

I ask because we had a improvised tent set up next to a small lake with some fishing and cooking supplies in it and someone decided that a long stick and burlap was too much for them to find on there own and decided to take our tent leaving all the items on the ground.

I thought about reporting it but It felt it a bit petty over a improvised tent and some fishing rods and cooking gear.

 

Edited by rhothar

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I do not support changing this rule, but, if anything...

Perhaps add an addendum that specifically states "Do not steal tents" and another one like "Do not bring a car to steal absolutely everything" -> That's not stealing! That's Diogenes syndrome! Ask Dr Shock for assistance! ( @Imation11 ) XD!

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